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Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

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Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#41

Post by TylerE »

peterwwillis wrote: post #38
walrus01 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm surprised that remote video cameras aren't used by tower controllers. There are software and hardware/network setups designed to do this now, in fact London City Airport is about to move to a fully virtual control tower, with a bunch of super high res pan/tilt/zoom cameras on a mast instead of an on-site tower. https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=lon...

what happens when the camera lens gets a smudge?

I'd assume like cameras used at sporting events the lens would be covered by a clear plastic film on a roll, which can be moved to get a clean section. A bit like those toilet seat covers in airports, ironically.

Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#42

Post by SOLAR_FIELDS »

SaberTail wrote: post #13

If anyone would like to listen to the ATC radio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW-ETmZU0u8

I love hearing ATC radio. I think the guy who did the classic SR71 story about upstaging everyone on some California flyby noted this pretty well - even in the times of near peril pilots and ATC will be the cool-as-steel that keep everyone calm.

Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#43

Post by mortenjorck »

nutcracker46 wrote: post #3

The report identifies good preventive measures. Autotuning the ILS would be handy, as would an aural alert for lateral deviation, perhaps announcing, "Localizer, Localizer." The crew may have caught the closure of 28L and planned better with a review of NOTAMS before top of descent and including them in the approach briefing. When I'm up there, and sleepy, I ask for a coffee and pull out the NOTAMS for one last look…

The recommendations look like important steps, especially the concept of a system that alerts pilots to runway surface non-alignment. I have to wonder, though, does it always take a close call like this (or worse) to bring up such a proposal? Does the NTSB also study otherwise safe flights to identify risks in pilot, tower, or ground crew human factors and make proactive recommendations?

Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#44

Post by aeternus »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #33
nutcracker46 wrote: post #3

The report identifies good preventive measures. Autotuning the ILS would be handy, as would an aural alert for lateral deviation, perhaps announcing, "Localizer, Localizer." The crew may have caught the closure of 28L and planned better with a review of NOTAMS before top of descent and including them in the approach briefing. When I'm up there, and sleepy, I ask for a coffee and pull out the NOTAMS for one last look…

How difficult is it to see what's happening on the ground at night from a plane? I've never been in a cockpit at night. I'd have to hope that taxiways are marked in some explicit way to make it clear that they're not runways, like with an X or some pattern of lights that's not on runways; or have all runways marked with an obvious pattern that indicates "land here" (so if you don't see that, you know you're not landi…

The numbers are not labeled in lights. Although this pic is blurry, this is SFO with both runways open: https://i.redd.it/hguxuyztxzdz.jpg

The night of the accident, the left runway was closed and lights were turned off.. and they were expecting two runways and to land on the one on the right. There's still no excuse for this happening with two ATP-rated pilots that have done this type of landing thousands of times, but you can kinda see how it is possible at least.

This also isn't unheard-of. For example, Harrison Ford had a similar issue where he landed his private plane on a taxiway at an airport with parallel runways.

Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#45

Post by augustz »

nutcracker46 wrote: post #3

The report identifies good preventive measures. Autotuning the ILS would be handy, as would an aural alert for lateral deviation, perhaps announcing, "Localizer, Localizer." The crew may have caught the closure of 28L and planned better with a review of NOTAMS before top of descent and including them in the approach briefing. When I'm up there, and sleepy, I ask for a coffee and pull out the NOTAMS for one last look…

Just for SFO you have 84 NOTAMs.

!SFO 06/079 SFO OBST RIG (ASN 2017-AWP-3368-NRA) 373740N1222224W (0.5NM NE SFO) 41FT (34FT AGL) FLAGGED AND LGTD 1806201400-1811010100

This is a flagged and lighted obstruction half a mile way that is 34 feet above ground level.

Now put in a full route and takeoff airport and maybe if you have had some stops during the day. The NOTAM seems a bit long. Then if are overseas and have to deal with the BS political notams. Check out greece and turkey notams.

...THE REF (B) TURKISH NOTAM A3009/16 LTAAYNYX (111139 EUECYIYN JUL 2016) HAS NO GROUND, CANNOT PRODUCE ANY INTERNATIONALLY LEGAL EFFECT WITHIN ATHINAI FIR/ HELLAS UIR AND IS CONSIDERED NULL AND VOID.

I'm curious how many pilots fully read all NOTAMs, locate them geographically to understand where they are etc etc on every flight.

Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#46

Post by mmaunder »

This is what is called a 'cascade of failures' in aviation - and the term is used elsewhere. Multiple failures resulting in a catastrophic failure. In your own life and goings about, it's sometimes interesting to do a failure analysis and you'll often find you experienced a cascade.

It's really unfortunate that the cockpit voice recorder was overwritten. I'm guessing they're using very old technology where storage space is at a premium.

They're still using the flashing X on closed runways - e.g. at SEATAC right now. The lights looked incandescent a couple nights ago while passing the X. So not very bright or visible.

This accident would probably have been one of the worst in history. Multiple passenger planes on the taxiway taken out by a passenger jet.

Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#47

Post by outworlder »

abaillargeon wrote: post #24

I've been anticipating the release of this report this since I heard about the incident. I work on an avionics product that's designed to prevent this exact scenario. We use the aircraft's position along with a database of runways and taxiways to determine if the aircraft is approaching the runway the pilot intends. If we determine the aircraft is landing, we issue a visual and aural alert to the pilot ("TAXIWAY LAND…

What is the chance of false positives (or negatives) due to out of date databases?

Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#48

Post by walrus01 »

peterwwillis wrote: post #38
walrus01 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm surprised that remote video cameras aren't used by tower controllers. There are software and hardware/network setups designed to do this now, in fact London City Airport is about to move to a fully virtual control tower, with a bunch of super high res pan/tilt/zoom cameras on a mast instead of an on-site tower. https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=lon...

what happens when the camera lens gets a smudge?

If I had to make a wild guess, it's a climbable mast where they send somebody up with microfiber cloth and 99% pure isopropyl alcohol periodically to clean the lenses. Or the glass panel that's in front of the lenses.

Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#49

Post by outworlder »

augustz wrote: post #45
nutcracker46 wrote: post #3

The report identifies good preventive measures. Autotuning the ILS would be handy, as would an aural alert for lateral deviation, perhaps announcing, "Localizer, Localizer." The crew may have caught the closure of 28L and planned better with a review of NOTAMS before top of descent and including them in the approach briefing. When I'm up there, and sleepy, I ask for a coffee and pull out the NOTAMS for one last look…

Just for SFO you have 84 NOTAMs. !SFO 06/079 SFO OBST RIG (ASN 2017-AWP-3368-NRA) 373740N1222224W (0.5NM NE SFO) 41FT (34FT AGL) FLAGGED AND LGTD 1806201400-1811010100 This is a flagged and lighted obstruction half a mile way that is 34 feet above ground level. Now put in a full route and takeoff airport and maybe if you have had some stops during the day. The NOTAM seems a bit long. Then if are overseas and have to…

Indeed. 'Notices' can be almost anything.

I was doing simulated flights over the continental US recently. Even small airports may have a lot of NOTAMs. Some are important (for instance, warning about objects close to some parts of the runway, or issues with a runway, or even animals or birds), but many others are completely useless.

Noise abatement restrictions ironically add a lot of NOTAM 'noise'. There should be a separate category for these, as these are not safety related.

Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#50

Post by outworlder »

zkms wrote: post #23
aeternus wrote: post #12

I'm surprised that remote video cameras aren't used by tower controllers. The perspective of the control tower makes it difficult to catch issues like this, but a simple video camera aligned with the center-line of each runway would allow controllers to more easily verify that planes are lined up as well as other possible issues like gear down & locked, etc.

> I'm surprised that remote video cameras aren't used by tower controllers. I'm surprised that forward-looking infrared cameras aren't more commonly used in civilian aircraft, especially given the availability of staring arrays with decent resolution/framerate that don't require cooling. Even without the requisite certification for use as a for-realsies landing aid, it's nevertheless a useful tool to get situational…

They are more commonly found aboard 'experimental' aircraft because of the certification issues you pointed out.
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