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FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

miamiherald.com

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Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#71

Post by bsder »

mannykannot wrote: post #64

It is heartrending to realize that they were given one last chance to step back from the abyss, when cracks appeared, but they pressed on regardless. If something happens that you don't understand, it's time to halt and reevaluate. It bugs me that FIGG (one of the contractors) appears to be threatening the professional licenses of the engineers who helped the Miami Herald's investigation, by suggesting that doing so…

> It bugs me that FIGG (one of the contractors) appears to be threatening the professional licenses of the engineers who helped the Miami Herald's investigation, by suggesting that doing so was unethical.

As a licensed Professional Engineer, you have to be quite careful criticizing other engineers. As long as the engineer signing off met "standard practices", he is covered and saying that he is not could get you in quite hot water.

In addition, while it is certainly possible that the engineer screwed up, it is also not impossible that the concrete may have been substandard, installation instructions may not have been followed, etc.

For example, in the Citibank Tower, the design was incorrect for quartering winds. However, Bethlehem Steel, the steel supplier, suggested cheaper bolted connections which made the problem worse.

http://www.engineersjournal.ie/2015/12/08/citicorp-centre-to...

Engineering failures are often a chain. That's why the NTSB has to be allowed to do its work.

Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#72

Post by dragonwriter »

mygo wrote: post #39
peterwwillis wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't the only example of that. Imitating an archaic form of architecture is often a homage. Go to some modern temples/shrines in Japan. Check out the torii gates and any other classical looking structure. Compare the ones in wood to the ones in stone or concrete. They look identical. If you look close, you'll notice the little details sticking out of parts of the design. It's almost always a part of Japanese wo…

Is the goal to make beautiful structures, or is it to make beautiful structures as if they still have the characteristics of wood? I’m inclined to believe that, if the original masterful wood-crafters had instead began their professions with stone, that they would have created beautiful structures that fully explored the capabilities of stone, and that their contributions to architecture may have looked a little diff…

> Is the goal to make beautiful structures, or is it to make beautiful structures as if they are still have the characteristics of wood?

Beauty is subjective and the development of taste is path-dependent. A thing can be beautiful because it evokes features that make a designar successful for functional reasons in historical media.

Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#73

Post by PebblesRox »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #27
ceejayoz wrote: post #23

> "This structure should function as more than just a path for circulation; it should be a place to be and a place to be experienced, and the FIU campus and its students must be proud of it," the document's introduction reads. "It should be a destination in its own right where community members might linger, gather, and create an urban social space — a linear park." This reads a lot like every startup that tries to c…

“Hey guys let’s go hang out on the bridge over the highway.” It is like a plaza, but a bridge! Ignore the fumes and deafening roar of traffic.

A successful example of this is the I-670 cap bridge in Columbus, OH. The bridge is lined with buildings so it’s hard to tell you’re even on a bridge. It has the advantage of being over a sunken highway, so there’s no grade change to deal with. https://www.google.com/search?q=the+cap+at+union+station&lr=...:

Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#74

Post by rxhernandez »

mannykannot wrote: post #67
echotango wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but only because you seem to have missed the crux (no irony intended) of Ayn Rand's ideology. She hated how even the style of the buildings around her embodied a people and culture she saw as a threat to her vision of the world and wanted to tear down. She would have no "homage" to it at all.

We are under no obligation to regard Rand as the last word on anything, fortunately.

So say we all.

Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#75

Post by paulie_a »

echotango wrote: post #50
subjectsigma wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see La Sagrada Familia not only being around, but being celebrated, for 500 years more. It's still under construction and has been for (almost?) 100 years. Google it, the church is absolutely beautiful. In fitting with the theme of the GP, not only is it structurally sound (to my knowledge) because of how the pillars are constructed, but it successfully pays homage to Gothic architecture and the oldest inspirat…

I agree, it is beautiful. But Ayn Rand would have hated it. That design is steeped in European and Christian traditions and symbolism. Those things are all anathema to her ideology.

But honestly who gives a shit about what Ayn Rand would have thought about it. She was a nut and her ideology should be aggressively dismissed as simplistic and quite frankly stupid.

Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#76

Post by bigger_cheese »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #12
lrn wrote: post #9

The Fountainhead Chapter I; Howard Roark to the Dean --- "Why do you want me to think that this is great architecture?" He pointed to the picture of the Parthenon. "That," said the Dean, "is the Parthenon!" "So it is." "I haven't the time to waste on silly questions." "All right, then." Roark got up, he took a long ruler from the desk, he walked to the picture. "Shall I tell you what's rotten about it?" "It’s the Par…

Then again the Parthenon has has been around for nearly 2,500 years (finished in 432 BC), and during that time has been considered by people from all over the world one of the most beautiful buildings ever built. What building by modern architects will even be around 500 years from now, much less revered as an example of beautiful architecture?

I think beauty is a very subjective thing. I absolutely love the appearance of the UTS tower in central Sydney all my friends think I'm mad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTS_Tower

Something about those big blocky Brutalist style concrete box buildings you just know the thing is nigh indestructible and is going to be around forever and that to me is the beauty of the thing it has such as permanence about it. It just kind of sticks out there and says 'here I am deal with it'.

Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#77

Post by elefanten »

bsder wrote: post #71
mannykannot wrote: post #64

It is heartrending to realize that they were given one last chance to step back from the abyss, when cracks appeared, but they pressed on regardless. If something happens that you don't understand, it's time to halt and reevaluate. It bugs me that FIGG (one of the contractors) appears to be threatening the professional licenses of the engineers who helped the Miami Herald's investigation, by suggesting that doing so…

> It bugs me that FIGG (one of the contractors) appears to be threatening the professional licenses of the engineers who helped the Miami Herald's investigation, by suggesting that doing so was unethical. As a licensed Professional Engineer, you have to be quite careful criticizing other engineers. As long as the engineer signing off met "standard practices", he is covered and saying that he is not could get you in q…

Can you elaborate? This seems like a very perverse system. Why is criticism viewed to be so dangerous?

As long as both the critic and the criticized are supporting their arguments with reasons and engaged in dialogue, the outcome should be net good for everyone.

Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#78

Post by paulie_a »

fma wrote: post #47
WalterBright wrote: post #28

"But they suggested that over-reliance on the computer models, a common pitfall in the profession, may have played into it." It's very easy to be seduced into assuming a computer model's results are correct. Computer models of critical bits should always be double-checked by a separate independent calculation. For this bridge, a simple analysis of static forces should have been sufficient for a cross-check, despite t…

It always scares me that civil engineers and other real engineers (with professional engineer certificates) rely on software built by software "engineers" who may just be some kids out of high school that picked up coding. It's an extreme scenario, yes, as I'm sure/hope the software goes through rigorous testing.

When I was growing up I lived in a small town and the city planner had mocked the entire town in the original SimCity. The ongoing joke was that he would test any proposals in that.

Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#79

Post by timpattinson »

m0llusk wrote: post #62

Odd that there is no mention of the analysis on AvE YouTube. The support structure used was substantially different from the one planned and it was the post tensioning process that triggered the failure. It is possible that using the planned supports might have allowed the structure to endure the post tensioning procedure.

AvE might work in engineering, but I don't think he's a structural PE.

Re: FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the design had a key mistake

#80

Post by mannykannot »

bsder wrote: post #71
mannykannot wrote: post #64

It is heartrending to realize that they were given one last chance to step back from the abyss, when cracks appeared, but they pressed on regardless. If something happens that you don't understand, it's time to halt and reevaluate. It bugs me that FIGG (one of the contractors) appears to be threatening the professional licenses of the engineers who helped the Miami Herald's investigation, by suggesting that doing so…

> It bugs me that FIGG (one of the contractors) appears to be threatening the professional licenses of the engineers who helped the Miami Herald's investigation, by suggesting that doing so was unethical. As a licensed Professional Engineer, you have to be quite careful criticizing other engineers. As long as the engineer signing off met "standard practices", he is covered and saying that he is not could get you in q…

Thank you for your informative input. In this case, the article is not naming a specific engineer, though I realize that it will ultimately come down to a small number of people. If, as claimed, the calculations used did significantly under-represent the forces on the strut that failed, that would seem to be a matter of physics, regardless of how it came about.

The Citibank tower continues to sway and creak, more noticeably than most comparable buildings, in a strong wind.

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