Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks. • Hacker News Board

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#71

Post by sx » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 6:15 PM UTC

mfukar wrote: post #46

sx wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this is not the cause of the economic problems. The more appropriate solution would be to shut down the money-loosing public businesses (like the train org) and lay off as many people as needed from the public sector. This way, they will reduce government spending and will also allow people to do something more productive. More taxation will just slow down the economy even further.

Really? Shut down public transportation, public health care, public telecommunications and public power? Do you have an equally brief transition plan?

I am not advocating something that extreme here. Not sure how familiar you are with Greece. Each of these organizations is overstaffed to a great extend. Then some of them are totally useless, like the public railroad. On the top of that there are businesses that would be very healthy in the private sector (see banks) and that the government has absolutely no reason to be in. The fact that the government is actually in those businesses, profitable or not, screws up the incentives of everyone involved.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#72

Post by sx » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 6:32 PM UTC

nodata wrote: post #44

sx wrote: post #15

The article points out many of the problems of the greek economy, like: * The inflated public sector * The power of the unions over the government * The corruption in certain areas of the public sector (e.g. hospitals) * The loose observance of laws But it mischaracterizes several important points, as it is commons with articles that describe such complicated issues after a minimal exposure of the journalist to the s…

> Tax evasion does not hurt the real economy. You sound like someone from Greece trying to justify tax evasion - are you Greek? What is the "real economy"?

I am not advocating tax evasion. I think, US for example, is a great place to do business, as opposed to Greece, because the letter of the law is followed and the rules are clear to everyone. I am just saying that the Greek government was so inefficient and the public sector so bloated, that in some sense tax evasion was helping put people's money at more efficient uses.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#73

Post by mindslight » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 6:47 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #67

mindslight wrote: post #66

This entire article presumes that the Greek people are responsible for the debts of the Greek government.

Well they elect the government, so yes they are.

Having the ability to cast a vote makes one responsible for all actions of whomever gets elected, plus the entire standing government?

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#74

Post by jseliger » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 7:44 PM UTC

natrius wrote: post #40

jseliger wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is: do you convert that sentiment to subscribing? I ask because the only way good journalism venues can survive in the short to medium term is through print subscriptions, which subsidize their websites. (For those of you about to level the charge of hypocrisy: I get the New Yorker and the Atlantic. Reading the latter starting when I was a college freshmen has probably taught nearly as much as all my non…

It's a nice sentiment, but expecting people to subscribe to your print magazine because they like reading your articles online is a recipe for a broken business model. People like good journalism and they're willing to support it, but such support needs to be requested in a logical manner. When non-profits request donations, that makes sense. When for-profit print publications ask for subscriptions, people are disinc…

It's a nice sentiment, but expecting people to subscribe to your print magazine because they like reading your articles online is a recipe for a broken business model.

Maybe so. But if you, as an individual, like the high-quality journalism that's being produced, the question is not whether the magazine has an optimal business model but whether you want to keep reading the high-quality journalism. The optimal way to signal that you do is to subscribe.

When for-profit print publications ask for subscriptions, people are disinclined to follow through because they don't actually want what they're presumably paying for.

I think I'm paying for high-quality journalism, unbiased stories, and deep reporting. It happens to be delivered in a convenient package of pages bound with a stable and mailed. What do you think you (or others) are paying for?

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#75

Post by radu_floricica » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 7:48 PM UTC

ovi256 wrote: post #31

_delirium wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't seem to find it, but I recall reading a piece at one point that suggested the general disregard for government rules in the eastern Mediterranean goes back centuries, to the rule of the Byzantines, Arabs, and Ottomans at various times. The rulers kept changing, and were generally bureaucratic, so people got used to doing whatever minimum was necessary to appease them, and generally ignore them whenever possib…

You can safely add the Balkans and Romania to that group. Although many things work well without a bribe in Romania, most important things, I'm told, do not. The first thing my parents do when they have to deal with the government is ask themselves who do we know that works in that department ? As teachers, that works great for them. TBH, they do that when dealing with private businesses too, maybe even more so, but…

As a Romanian, this article mostly made me feel good there are worse places. Not a noble feeling, but I'll take what I can.

This being said, this instinct about looking for acquaintances first is starting to be not so useful, and used mostly by the older generation. I've seen instances where inside intervention was less efficient - but I've also seen official free consultants (good ones) with too much free time because most people went over their. But still, it is unfortunately far from being a useless strategy in way too many cases.

Compared to how the article paints Greece though, our problems are different. Tax evasion is real here, but not critical. What _is_ extremely painful at the moment is the widespread politicization of public institutions. Everything starting from middle school headmasters has to belong to a party or another (and of course usually it's the ruling one).

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#76

Post by patinador » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 9:00 PM UTC

When things are going bad is not easy to change. It is easy to spend money, to borrow and to forget to pay taxes. But the other way round is another story, one to be written and not a gay one.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#77

Post by nodata » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 9:14 PM UTC

sx wrote: post #72

nodata wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tax evasion does not hurt the real economy. You sound like someone from Greece trying to justify tax evasion - are you Greek? What is the "real economy"?

I am not advocating tax evasion. I think, US for example, is a great place to do business, as opposed to Greece, because the letter of the law is followed and the rules are clear to everyone. I am just saying that the Greek government was so inefficient and the public sector so bloated, that in some sense tax evasion was helping put people's money at more efficient uses.

More efficient such as..?

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#78

Post by varjag » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 10:00 PM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #73

varjag wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well they elect the government, so yes they are.

Having the ability to cast a vote makes one responsible for all actions of whomever gets elected, plus the entire standing government?

Voting in representative democracy is statistical quality, so no, not one in particular but a nation as a whole. Like in the USA you might not be personally responsible for Iraq war, but as an American, you are.

Of course such property makes it attractive to neglect personal political responsibility. But in some situations, like with Greeks now, it can come back and bite you in the ass.

(Also, read the article - it's not quite about benign populi paying for mistakes of the Government)

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#79

Post by natrius » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 10:30 PM UTC

jseliger wrote: post #74

natrius wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a nice sentiment, but expecting people to subscribe to your print magazine because they like reading your articles online is a recipe for a broken business model. People like good journalism and they're willing to support it, but such support needs to be requested in a logical manner. When non-profits request donations, that makes sense. When for-profit print publications ask for subscriptions, people are disinc…

It's a nice sentiment, but expecting people to subscribe to your print magazine because they like reading your articles online is a recipe for a broken business model. Maybe so. But if you, as an individual, like the high-quality journalism that's being produced, the question is not whether the magazine has an optimal business model but whether you want to keep reading the high-quality journalism. The optimal way to…

> The optimal way to signal that you do is to subscribe.

Agreed.

> I think I'm paying for high-quality journalism, unbiased stories, and deep reporting. It happens to be delivered in a convenient package of pages bound with a stable and mailed. What do you think you (or others) are paying for?

You're not paying for that. Anyone can get that for free. You're donating your money to them so they can continue to do their work. You don't actually want what they're selling, you just want them to continue producing the stuff that they give away to everyone. Sounds like a non-profit to me.

High-quality journalism isn't in much trouble. People are willing to pay for it (and my job security relies on that fact), but most publications are using a psychologically suboptimal way to get that money. If they explicitly said, "Donate money to us or buy a subscription so we can keep producing great journalism", they'd probably be more successful.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#80

Post by mindslight » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 11:06 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #78

mindslight wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having the ability to cast a vote makes one responsible for all actions of whomever gets elected, plus the entire standing government?

Voting in representative democracy is statistical quality, so no, not one in particular but a nation as a whole. Like in the USA you might not be personally responsible for Iraq war, but as an American, you are. Of course such property makes it attractive to neglect personal political responsibility. But in some situations, like with Greeks now, it can come back and bite you in the ass. (Also, read the article - it's…

To be partially responsible for something, there must be something one could have done that may have prevented it. Please tell me as an American, what I could have done that could have possibly prevented the Iraq war. I'm not asking for monumental results, but at least what would have withdrawn my alleged contribution to the war?

I did read the article, and all of its prescriptions presume that the Greek people are indebted to their government. Is it not possible that the informal economy grows, the government goes bankrupt, but the society (held together by local structures) continues on?