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Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

vanityfair.com

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Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#61

Post by rick888 »

davidw wrote: post #56
sx wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greece does not provide its citizens with more social services than other European countries, I would say that they actually provide less. And although you are right about the deficit, again, the main problem is the inflated public sector with all its associated problems, like high pensions at a young age. The private sector should not be burdened with this, and actually, it cannot afford to pay for this burden. If c…

It's not about more taxes, necessarily, it's that everyone should pay their "fair share", not some people pay 50%, and some wealthier people pay 0. If they think that is too high, they need to convince the politicians/electorate to lower the taxes. I can't just go steal stuff from the supermarket because I don't like the price.

"It's not about more taxes, necessarily, it's that everyone should pay their "fair share", not some people pay 50%"

I wish this was the case in the US.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-a...

Nearly 50% of US households didn't pay federal taxes last year. It seems people only complain when the "rich" don't pay their taxes.

I also seriously doubt that the only people not paying taxes in Greece are wealthy.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#62

Post by davidw »

rick888 wrote: post #61
davidw wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about more taxes, necessarily, it's that everyone should pay their "fair share", not some people pay 50%, and some wealthier people pay 0. If they think that is too high, they need to convince the politicians/electorate to lower the taxes. I can't just go steal stuff from the supermarket because I don't like the price.

"It's not about more taxes, necessarily, it's that everyone should pay their "fair share", not some people pay 50%" I wish this was the case in the US. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-a... Nearly 50% of US households didn't pay federal taxes last year. It seems people only complain when the "rich" don't pay their taxes. I also seriously doubt that the only people not paying taxes in Greece…

But people in the US (mostly) pay the taxes that they are supposed to pay, not the taxes they feel like paying. If they don't like that, there is a democratic process they can go through to get them lowered (or raised, or whatever).

> I also seriously doubt that the only people not paying taxes in Greece are wealthy.

If you read the article and the comments, the people who actually pay their taxes are those who work for companies and have them withheld, so pretty much "middle class".

> It seems people only complain when the "rich" don't pay their taxes.

I wonder why ... I'd be pretty bitter if I had to pay, and saw some guy living a life of luxury who isn't paying a dime.

There's a difference between being against taxes, and fighting to eliminate them, and simply cheating because you don't like them.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#63

Post by davidw »

sx wrote: post #38
artsrc wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are going to be good citizens, then Greeks must not only pay their taxes, they must also take responsibility for fixing their government, reducing waste, and stamping out their culture of corruption.

I don't think I disagree with you. My whole argument in these posts is that tax evasion, although very real, did not lead Greece to this mess neither will its reverse take it out. The problem is the bloated public sector with all its related problems. I think fixing that should be the first step towards a real solution.

That's obviously a large part of the problem - to claim otherwise would be silly. But the overarching theme of the article is how everyone is out to "get theirs" and screw the next guy. This includes both the unions who got wages and benefits far out of proportion to the value of their work, as well as many people cheating on their taxes. It's a vicious circle, because when you see the next guy cheating and coming out ahead because of it, you are more inclined to cheat yourself, or grab what you can, the consequences for society be damned.

I think this has a perverse effect on markets in general: when you're pretty sure the next guy is out to screw you, rather than just make a fair trade, it erodes faith in markets and capitalism.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#64

Post by jimmyk »

loewenskind wrote: post #60
cynicalkane wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're enough of a bigshot in a company large enough to pay you that kind of money, then yes, workers are expensive. Hundreds of workers are pricier than one executive.

Really? 300 workers making $30k/year is less than $10 million.

Well, the workers are being paid less than $10 million. But if they receive any sort of benefits then their cost to the employer goes up quite a bit. And you also have to factor in payroll taxes. The cost of a worker is not just his/her salary.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#65

Post by nodata »

natrius wrote: post #40
jseliger wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is: do you convert that sentiment to subscribing? I ask because the only way good journalism venues can survive in the short to medium term is through print subscriptions, which subsidize their websites. (For those of you about to level the charge of hypocrisy: I get the New Yorker and the Atlantic. Reading the latter starting when I was a college freshmen has probably taught nearly as much as all my non…

It's a nice sentiment, but expecting people to subscribe to your print magazine because they like reading your articles online is a recipe for a broken business model. People like good journalism and they're willing to support it, but such support needs to be requested in a logical manner. When non-profits request donations, that makes sense. When for-profit print publications ask for subscriptions, people are disinc…

I subscribed to The Atlantic today because of the quality of this (Vanity Fair) article. Why? It reminded me of how good some of the articles from The Atlantic website were.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#68

Post by oiuygtfrtghyju »

mfukar wrote: post #46
sx wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this is not the cause of the economic problems. The more appropriate solution would be to shut down the money-loosing public businesses (like the train org) and lay off as many people as needed from the public sector. This way, they will reduce government spending and will also allow people to do something more productive. More taxation will just slow down the economy even further.

Really? Shut down public transportation, public health care, public telecommunications and public power? Do you have an equally brief transition plan?

Traditionally one then invades Poland - but this may not be an option for Greece.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#69

Post by splat »

jseliger wrote: post #37
code_duck wrote: post #10

Nice that we can still rely on Vanity Fair, the New Yorker and (sometimes) the Atlantic for journalism this thorough. Greece seems insane, of course - but there's always Italy.

The question is: do you convert that sentiment to subscribing? I ask because the only way good journalism venues can survive in the short to medium term is through print subscriptions, which subsidize their websites. (For those of you about to level the charge of hypocrisy: I get the New Yorker and the Atlantic. Reading the latter starting when I was a college freshmen has probably taught nearly as much as all my non…

I believe many magazines make most of their money off of advertising, not subscriptions. In fact many magazines will subsidize their subscription prices in order to increase readership so that they can raise the price for advertisements.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#70

Post by gaius »

forgottenpaswrd wrote: post #41
brc wrote: post #29

I thought that was an excellent, well written and entertaining article. Well worth the time if you are interested. To me the only solution is to remove themselves from the EU and go back to their own currency. And for some type of structured devaluation of their existing debts to gradually -rather than overnight- allow the other european banks to write off the losses. Though I'm not sure how you could get it to work…

They thought about this. What happens is that there is no way the devaluation could become "gradual". Imagine being Greek and having all your live savings in the bank, in euros, and tomorrow they become drachmas and in the process losing 25% purchasing power. What do you do? You sell all your drachmas and buy euros or dollars because you know drachmas are going to be even less tomorrow. It doesn't matter you make it…

A currency is "legal tender" because a government will accept taxes in it, so in practice everyone has to have it, and use it for their own commercial activity.

But in an economy where no-one pays taxes anyway...

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