Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks. • Hacker News Board

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#41

Post by forgottenpaswrd » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 7:58 AM UTC

brc wrote: post #29

I thought that was an excellent, well written and entertaining article. Well worth the time if you are interested. To me the only solution is to remove themselves from the EU and go back to their own currency. And for some type of structured devaluation of their existing debts to gradually -rather than overnight- allow the other european banks to write off the losses. Though I'm not sure how you could get it to work…

They thought about this. What happens is that there is no way the devaluation could become "gradual".

Imagine being Greek and having all your live savings in the bank, in euros, and tomorrow they become drachmas and in the process losing 25% purchasing power. What do you do? You sell all your drachmas and buy euros or dollars because you know drachmas are going to be even less tomorrow.

It doesn't matter you make it illegal, people is going to do it anyway. This is what happened in Argentina, nobody wanted pesos, they wanted USD. People stopped using banks(this way the government has less power over your money).

Also, people feel enormously betrayed when they realize their hard earned savings become nothing and politician heads roll down, so politicians try to delay it as much as possible. IMO it will happen sooner or later anyway, unfortunately because they were in fact betrayed.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#42

Post by ataggart » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 7:59 AM UTC

jakarta wrote: post #16

sx wrote: post #15

The article points out many of the problems of the greek economy, like: * The inflated public sector * The power of the unions over the government * The corruption in certain areas of the public sector (e.g. hospitals) * The loose observance of laws But it mischaracterizes several important points, as it is commons with articles that describe such complicated issues after a minimal exposure of the journalist to the s…

Tax evasion hurts when a government owes tons of money that it cannot pay back with the current tax revenue coming in.

It hurts the government's creditors, as it should.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#43

Post by davidw » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 8:26 AM UTC

sx wrote: post #15

The article points out many of the problems of the greek economy, like: * The inflated public sector * The power of the unions over the government * The corruption in certain areas of the public sector (e.g. hospitals) * The loose observance of laws But it mischaracterizes several important points, as it is commons with articles that describe such complicated issues after a minimal exposure of the journalist to the s…

"The loose observance of laws" and "tax evasion" are one and the same.

A big point I get from the article is that everyone is just looking out for themselves, with little regard for law or society. Want to pay less taxes? Fine, vote in the local version of Thatcher, but don't cheat. That leads to a system where everyone picks and chooses which laws they want to follow.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#44

Post by nodata » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 9:29 AM UTC

sx wrote: post #15

The article points out many of the problems of the greek economy, like: * The inflated public sector * The power of the unions over the government * The corruption in certain areas of the public sector (e.g. hospitals) * The loose observance of laws But it mischaracterizes several important points, as it is commons with articles that describe such complicated issues after a minimal exposure of the journalist to the s…

> Tax evasion does not hurt the real economy.

You sound like someone from Greece trying to justify tax evasion - are you Greek?

What is the "real economy"?

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#45

Post by brc » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 9:51 AM UTC

forgottenpaswrd wrote: post #41

brc wrote: post #29

I thought that was an excellent, well written and entertaining article. Well worth the time if you are interested. To me the only solution is to remove themselves from the EU and go back to their own currency. And for some type of structured devaluation of their existing debts to gradually -rather than overnight- allow the other european banks to write off the losses. Though I'm not sure how you could get it to work…

They thought about this. What happens is that there is no way the devaluation could become "gradual". Imagine being Greek and having all your live savings in the bank, in euros, and tomorrow they become drachmas and in the process losing 25% purchasing power. What do you do? You sell all your drachmas and buy euros or dollars because you know drachmas are going to be even less tomorrow. It doesn't matter you make it…

I was thinking more of the debt rather than the currency. My point of view wasn't so much the Greeks but the european banks with exposure to Greek government debt. I was thinking along the lines of an ECB fund that assumed responsibility for the debt, froze trading in it and gradually reduced the value somehow.

But as you say, once the Euro is dumped whatever replaces it is going to be very unstable.

All in all, it's a good warning against the evils of excessive government spending and endless deficits.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#46

Post by mfukar » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 11:47 AM UTC

sx wrote: post #18

jakarta wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax evasion hurts when a government owes tons of money that it cannot pay back with the current tax revenue coming in.

But this is not the cause of the economic problems. The more appropriate solution would be to shut down the money-loosing public businesses (like the train org) and lay off as many people as needed from the public sector. This way, they will reduce government spending and will also allow people to do something more productive. More taxation will just slow down the economy even further.

Really? Shut down public transportation, public health care, public telecommunications and public power? Do you have an equally brief transition plan?

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#47

Post by loewenskind » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 12:14 PM UTC

StavrosK wrote: post #12

Something the article doesn't mention (or that I didn't see when I skimmed it): The value of the entire Greek church is in the billions of euros, and nothing is taxed . The government asked them to be taxed a while ago, and the church said that, if they were taxed, they would have to stop charity work because they didn't have enough money. Meanwhile, the high priests wear 30k euro hats and ride around in limousines.…

>Meanwhile, the high priests wear 30k euro hats and ride around in limousines.

Remember this next time you see some big executive talking about how he needs tax cuts because he can't afford to hire employees. In other words, no matter how much someone makes, it never occurs to them that if they would make their insane excess a little less they could afford it.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#48

Post by gaius » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 12:50 PM UTC

loewenskind wrote: post #47

StavrosK wrote: post #12

Something the article doesn't mention (or that I didn't see when I skimmed it): The value of the entire Greek church is in the billions of euros, and nothing is taxed . The government asked them to be taxed a while ago, and the church said that, if they were taxed, they would have to stop charity work because they didn't have enough money. Meanwhile, the high priests wear 30k euro hats and ride around in limousines.…

>Meanwhile, the high priests wear 30k euro hats and ride around in limousines. Remember this next time you see some big executive talking about how he needs tax cuts because he can't afford to hire employees. In other words, no matter how much someone makes, it never occurs to them that if they would make their insane excess a little less they could afford it.

I worked in investment banking for 5 years and I never saw anyone wearing a EUR 30k hat!

Hell, Brioni or Kiton suits only come in at EUR 20k...

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#49

Post by vitolds » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 1:09 PM UTC

jakarta wrote: post #16

sx wrote: post #15

The article points out many of the problems of the greek economy, like: * The inflated public sector * The power of the unions over the government * The corruption in certain areas of the public sector (e.g. hospitals) * The loose observance of laws But it mischaracterizes several important points, as it is commons with articles that describe such complicated issues after a minimal exposure of the journalist to the s…

Tax evasion hurts when a government owes tons of money that it cannot pay back with the current tax revenue coming in.

It hurts the government, but the institutions that were dumb enough to lend Greece should be also accountable. Of course if Greece defaults, German taxpayers are likely to pick up the tab so it sucks for them.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#50

Post by vitolds » Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 1:14 PM UTC

sx wrote: post #15

The article points out many of the problems of the greek economy, like: * The inflated public sector * The power of the unions over the government * The corruption in certain areas of the public sector (e.g. hospitals) * The loose observance of laws But it mischaracterizes several important points, as it is commons with articles that describe such complicated issues after a minimal exposure of the journalist to the s…

good points. if greeks started paying all the taxes, the private sector would cease to exist.