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Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

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Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#71
post #67
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some technical understanding of this issue is prerequisite to understanding how the negative consequences outweigh the positive. Most of the tea-bagging protesters are protesting stuff that is way over their head, but they don't need a good technical understanding of since the issues are dumbed down to terms which fit their competence. I'm afraid this issue has been dumbed down as well. "If you have nothing to hide,…

> Most of the tea-bagging protesters are protesting stuff that is way over their head Oh really? You need to keep up. While the story used to be "ignorant", when folks actually looked at them, instead of relying on the US-lef "anyone who opposes me must be dumb" stereotype, they found that the Tea Party folks were, on the whole, better educated etc. Thus the new attack is that they're elitists. http://www.washingtonp…

Man, this whole tea-party thing was fairly inconsequential to the point I was trying to make. I brought it up as an example and because my parent brought it up.

This was the supplement I was trying to tack onto my parent's comment: "Some technical understanding of this issue is prerequisite to understanding how the negative consequences outweigh the positive." This concerning internet privacy.

And I said "tea-bagging protesters" as a quick, lazy, way to refer to a group of people. My intent wasn't pejorative, but I am aware of the sexual act. I just didn't make the connection while writing.

I am aware of the seething tone of my comment, but besides that I didn't say anything untruthful. I could have said this:

Most [members of almost any group of people] are [discussing|protesting] stuff that is way over their head, but they don't need a good technical understanding of since the issues are dumbed down to terms which fit their competence.

I emphasized the word "need" for a reason.

If a person has a low level of competence or technical understanding of a subject, then it makes sense that you're going to have to dumb down the communication in order for them to get some semblance of understanding.

Thus, we place our trust in qualified experts. Thus we (generally) accept what is taught to us in schools about chemistry and mathematics, because it's better than re-learning it for ourselves and because we assume we're learning from an expert.

But my position on internet privacy is a little different. I feel that you do need a minimal technical understanding of the issue. A technical understanding that most people don't have, thus the issue slips by. All this in response to this part of my parent's comment: "I really don't know what has to happen for online privacy to get a stage."

So again, I'm basically saying I don't think this'll find its way on stage until it's too late. Because there aren't enough people who have enough technical understanding of this issue.

So, This: Some technical understanding of this issue is prerequisite to understanding how the negative consequences outweigh the positive.

Then the Tea-party thing as an example of where the issue would slip through (though I admit I may be wrong on this point).

Then This: I don't think this'll find its way on stage until it's too late. Because there aren't enough people who have enough technical understanding of this issue.

Anyway, this is all my fault for not writing clearly enough. I'm outta here. I should also apologize if I sound like an irritated a-hole. I didn't sleep last night.

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the whole "I'm not doing anything wrong, why should I care if they are watching me" standpoint that most people have. The problem of course is that the people watching you are the ones who decide what's wrong. Of course there is the famous other quote: "If I have nothing to hide then why do you need to watch me?" or something like that.

with a complicated enough legal system, everyone is a criminal

[deleted]

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#73
post #10

I'll echo the advice I heard from Phillip Zimmermann back in the early 1990s: If everyone consistently used encryption for all their email (that's 'everyone', and 'all'), then the effectiveness of government access to email would be lowered to a near-moot level. The sheer complexity and resource requirements to decrypt _all_ email traffic would exceed the government's capabilities. I know the NSA has incredible capab…

Only partly. It still leaves header information open, so the government is still able to see who you talk to. Through traffic analysis they can see what groups you're likely to sympathize with, even if they can't see the membership roles. And they're able to tell when those groups are planning something, even if they don't know what.

In fact, 'traffic analysis' is exactly what you would use to focus the actual decryption power available to you towards the more likely sources of paydirt.

And storing all email until you might want to decrypt it would be another possibility, though that might be prohibitively expensive. This is actually one of the few cases where spam has a net positive effect, increasing the size of the haystack considerably.

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#74
post #53
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I used to live 15 minutes from the Capitol Building. So you lived in the imperial seat in the US, the one are where 75% of people are working for the government (directly or indirectly), and the one place that actually GREW during the current recession ... and you use that background to argue that Americans-as-a-whole are naive and love big intrusive government? You see the logical flaw here, don't you?

Capitols attract protests. I work two blocks from my state capitol, and I see more protests than I have anywhere else. I doubt the percentage of government employment is as high here, but it's still decently high. There are more variables involved than you're accounting for. I'd say your logic is more flawed than hers.

Except that state capitols are mostly closer to people than the national capitol. Perhaps the laziness we're talking of has an interstate threshold?

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#75
post #53
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I used to live 15 minutes from the Capitol Building. So you lived in the imperial seat in the US, the one are where 75% of people are working for the government (directly or indirectly), and the one place that actually GREW during the current recession ... and you use that background to argue that Americans-as-a-whole are naive and love big intrusive government? You see the logical flaw here, don't you?

Capitols attract protests. I work two blocks from my state capitol, and I see more protests than I have anywhere else. I doubt the percentage of government employment is as high here, but it's still decently high. There are more variables involved than you're accounting for. I'd say your logic is more flawed than hers.

I also live a few blocks from my state capitol building and I rarely see protests. Maybe one or two a year with 20 or 30 people. It just doesn't happen.

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#76
post #46

If only the silence meant that people were sharpening their pitchforks. Unfortunately, this is the USA -- we would rather die by a thousand paper-cuts than stand up and say "No!"...

There have been crazies ranting about how the government reads all your e-mail for years. Now that they're ACTUALLY trying to do that, no one is listening, because it's the same message as before. If the people spouting unfounded conspiracy theories all the time would just shut the hell up, then maybe people wouldn't see this as crying wolf.

[deleted]

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#77
post #46

If only the silence meant that people were sharpening their pitchforks. Unfortunately, this is the USA -- we would rather die by a thousand paper-cuts than stand up and say "No!"...

There have been crazies ranting about how the government reads all your e-mail for years. Now that they're ACTUALLY trying to do that, no one is listening, because it's the same message as before. If the people spouting unfounded conspiracy theories all the time would just shut the hell up, then maybe people wouldn't see this as crying wolf.

I'm not sure if they read all email, but they definitely warrantlessly monitored telecommunications during the Bush administration, severely enough that our government had to pass a bill saying you couldn't sue your phone company for breaking surveillance laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepting_v._AT&T

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_co...

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#79
So it's probably time to pull all my email out of Gmail and onto my own email server. At least the gov't hasn't yet routed around that basic personal liberty and property right. Surely many geeks will be moving away from freemium webmail that's wide open to the gov't, but where will they be going? Does anyone know of a good open-source Gmail front-end clone? If somehow this doesn't exist, open-source developers unite, let's do this!

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#80
post #28

"For its part, the Justice Department has taken a legalistic approach: a 17-page brief it filed last month acknowledges that federal law requires search warrants for messages in "electronic storage" that are less than 181 days old. But, Assistant U.S. Attorney Pegeen Rhyne writes in a government brief, the Yahoo Mail messages don't meet that definition. "Previously opened e-mail is not in 'electronic storage,'" Rhyne…

Depends on how you've defined "electronic storage" and its relation to email.

Like Bill Clinton whom never had sex with Lewinsky, because sex means two reproductive organs touching and not the mouth.

PS: I didn't read the definition, just exemplifying how the legal system (sometimes) works.

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