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Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

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Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#51

Post by tjic »

justlearning wrote: post #33
kunley wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, living in Europe I see you in the US as a great example of society which dares to stand up and say "No!". By comparison, you are exceptionally well-educated, conscious and actively taking care of your rights.

how so? if I may ask. Living in the US, I accept the claim that not many get together to say "No". Compare to Asian/European countries where the slightest rift creates huge protests. To cite UK as an example, we always hear British Airways going on strikes(not saying it's a good/bad thing); When was the last time we heard such a thing in the US? I often bring this up in conversations and a common argument thrown at m…

> Living in the US, I accept the claim that not many get together to say "No". Compare to Asian/European countries where the slightest rift creates huge protests.

What gives you the impression that "the slightest rift causes huge protests" in Asia and Europe?

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#52

Post by tjic »

danudey wrote: post #47
yummyfajitas wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama selected Joe "I wrote the Patriot Act" Biden as his VP. This is the same Joe Biden who tried to ban Turing machines because they could be used to encrypt files that the government would be unable to crack. Plenty of people knew this, but voted for Obama anyway. For many people, "the government is violating privacy rights" is not a genuine policy position. It's just a club to beat their political opponents with.

Whatever you may think about Joe Biden, I can guarantee you he's a better VP than Sarah 'Drill baby drill' Palin (who now, ironically, has a TV series on Discovery where she talks about the natural beauty of Alaska that she kept trying to destroy).

> I can guarantee you he's a better VP than Sarah 'Drill baby drill' Palin

Thanks. Your extensive footnoting and logical arguments definitely convinced me of your point of view.

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#53

Post by natrius »

tjic wrote: post #50
ahoyhere wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American living in Europe, I can tell you your impression is sadly mistaken. I've never seen so many people exercising their right to free speech as in Vienna and Berlin, for example. And I used to live 15 minutes from the Capitol Building.

> I used to live 15 minutes from the Capitol Building. So you lived in the imperial seat in the US, the one are where 75% of people are working for the government (directly or indirectly), and the one place that actually GREW during the current recession ... and you use that background to argue that Americans-as-a-whole are naive and love big intrusive government? You see the logical flaw here, don't you?

Capitols attract protests. I work two blocks from my state capitol, and I see more protests than I have anywhere else. I doubt the percentage of government employment is as high here, but it's still decently high.

There are more variables involved than you're accounting for. I'd say your logic is more flawed than hers.

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#54

Post by hugh3 »

roc wrote: post #12
ytilibitapmoc wrote: post #2

If only the silence meant that people were sharpening their pitchforks. Unfortunately, this is the USA -- we would rather die by a thousand paper-cuts than stand up and say "No!"...

Particularly when those cuts are delivered by people wrapped in the flag, promising safety. It seems we have healthier debate over the government's ability to pass blanket public-space no-smoking laws, than the executive's new-found legal ability to ignore the constitution, the judicial and the legislative at its whim. You can get tens of thousands to protest the deficit, or health care reform, or gay rights - but th…

Actually an awful lot of people protested against this kind of thing when it was George W. Bush doing it.

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#55

Post by sophacles »

lutorm wrote: post #45
yummyfajitas wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama selected Joe "I wrote the Patriot Act" Biden as his VP. This is the same Joe Biden who tried to ban Turing machines because they could be used to encrypt files that the government would be unable to crack. Plenty of people knew this, but voted for Obama anyway. For many people, "the government is violating privacy rights" is not a genuine policy position. It's just a club to beat their political opponents with.

"Plenty of people knew this, but voted for Obama anyway." In all fairness, given the range of options offered for American voters, I'd also have gone with Obama even if I didn't agree on everything.

This is not how US politcs works. If you agree with a side on some points and disagree with others you are ostracized by all groups. It is stupid, but unfortunately the US is a place where (for example) you are pro-death penalty and anti-abortion or pro-abortion and anti-death penalty. If you are pro both or anti both, almost everyone hates you.

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#56

Post by mjgoins »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #26
ytilibitapmoc wrote: post #2

If only the silence meant that people were sharpening their pitchforks. Unfortunately, this is the USA -- we would rather die by a thousand paper-cuts than stand up and say "No!"...

Obama selected Joe "I wrote the Patriot Act" Biden as his VP. This is the same Joe Biden who tried to ban Turing machines because they could be used to encrypt files that the government would be unable to crack. Plenty of people knew this, but voted for Obama anyway. For many people, "the government is violating privacy rights" is not a genuine policy position. It's just a club to beat their political opponents with.

Can you provide a link or citation for the thing about the Turing machines? Sounds interesting.

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#57

Post by mixmax »

weaksauce wrote: post #29
roc wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Particularly when those cuts are delivered by people wrapped in the flag, promising safety. It seems we have healthier debate over the government's ability to pass blanket public-space no-smoking laws, than the executive's new-found legal ability to ignore the constitution, the judicial and the legislative at its whim. You can get tens of thousands to protest the deficit, or health care reform, or gay rights - but th…

It's the whole "I'm not doing anything wrong, why should I care if they are watching me" standpoint that most people have. The problem of course is that the people watching you are the ones who decide what's wrong. Of course there is the famous other quote: "If I have nothing to hide then why do you need to watch me?" or something like that.

Maybe you meant this:

First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#58

Post by bradbeattie »

lutorm wrote: post #45
yummyfajitas wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama selected Joe "I wrote the Patriot Act" Biden as his VP. This is the same Joe Biden who tried to ban Turing machines because they could be used to encrypt files that the government would be unable to crack. Plenty of people knew this, but voted for Obama anyway. For many people, "the government is violating privacy rights" is not a genuine policy position. It's just a club to beat their political opponents with.

"Plenty of people knew this, but voted for Obama anyway." In all fairness, given the range of options offered for American voters, I'd also have gone with Obama even if I didn't agree on everything.

Just goes to highlight why electoral reform is important. When we start talking about more expressive ballots (i.e. expressing more than just a tactical first preference), your options aren't nearly as limited.

Re: Obama administration wanted warrantless access rights to most US email

#60

Post by mortenjorck »

danudey wrote: post #47
yummyfajitas wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama selected Joe "I wrote the Patriot Act" Biden as his VP. This is the same Joe Biden who tried to ban Turing machines because they could be used to encrypt files that the government would be unable to crack. Plenty of people knew this, but voted for Obama anyway. For many people, "the government is violating privacy rights" is not a genuine policy position. It's just a club to beat their political opponents with.

Whatever you may think about Joe Biden, I can guarantee you he's a better VP than Sarah 'Drill baby drill' Palin (who now, ironically, has a TV series on Discovery where she talks about the natural beauty of Alaska that she kept trying to destroy).

Whatever you may think about implementing an entire e-commerce site in full-screen Flash and flat XML files, I can guarantee you it's a better solution than implementing an entire e-commerce site in a hybrid Java and ActiveX environment with an Access 97 backend.
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