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The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

npr.org

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Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#71

Post by jazzyk »

mikeash wrote: post #61
jazzyk wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps. But chances are that these two will become their parties' candidates and then most Americans _will_ have to choose between them. The US has so many smart, hard working people, we deserve better.

I really, really doubt that we'll be forced to choose between Clinton and Trump. Clinton, yes, but the Republicans aren't that insane. In any case, saying that a broken system forces us to choose the lesser of two evils is quite different from saying that most Americans support one of these two candidates.

I totally understood the difference, I was trying to say that it doesn't really matter. We need to fix the broken system, but I am not aware of any candidates having any workable ideas...

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#72

Post by danans »

kyllo wrote: post #70
ryandrake wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's a simpler, binary question: You're either rely on your own labor for a living (in other words, you're N missed paychecks away from zero), or you don't rely on your own labor. Some people think if their number "N" is high enough they can call themselves "middle class" to distinguish themselves from poorer people, but it's a small distinction. At the end of the day, you either have to work for a living or yo…

Physical vs. mental labor (aka blue collar and service vs. white collar) is what distinguishes lower and middle class and creates the third category. Lower class = your income relies on your physical labor Middle class = your income relies on your mental labor Upper class = your income relies on your capital and others' labor

There are probably some struggling postdocs and adjuncts out there who would take issue with this classification. Also, some very successful skilled laborers and artisans.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#73

Post by istjohn »

jeffdavis wrote: post #46
tryitnow wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is just stating the middle class is shrinking - and inequality is therefore increasing. And increasing inequality is a problem. The problem with increasing inequality is not necessarily decreasing mean incomes. Inequality is a problem because of the increasing class-based polarization of society, the power differential between different families, and a host of other factors. All of which can be present an…

But is it inequality from one person to another, or just unequal life stages for the same individual? You could imagine a college student from a middle-class background earning very little from 20-30, then being middle-income from 30-40, then upper-income from 40-65, then retired until 85. Their independent life (20+) is 65 years, of which 30 are low-income, 10 middle-income, and 25 high income.

Unequal life stages certainly contribute to inequality, but the Atlantic published an article this summer discussing research on intergenerational socioeconomic mobility: "Children born to 90th-percentile earners are typically on track to make three times more than the children of 10th-percentile earners." So socioeconomic class is definitely a big part of the equation.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#74

Post by refurb »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #49
will_pseudonym wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! If we the entirety of the middle class disappeared and reappeared in the upper class, how would that be damaging to the country? If every member had no change or an increase to their income, it seems insane that that could have anything but a positive effect for the economy.

It's very important (for fairness, and for social stability) that the lower class have at least a somewhat realistic possibility of crossing the gap into middle class. If they have to jump all the way to upper class, does that mean that they're more likely to be trapped in lower class? That's a bad outcome for them. (It's fine for the middle class, of course.)

Yes, but this data tells us nothing about mobility.

People move from class to class all the time.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#75

Post by khaolak »

danans wrote: post #72
kyllo wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Physical vs. mental labor (aka blue collar and service vs. white collar) is what distinguishes lower and middle class and creates the third category. Lower class = your income relies on your physical labor Middle class = your income relies on your mental labor Upper class = your income relies on your capital and others' labor

There are probably some struggling postdocs and adjuncts out there who would take issue with this classification. Also, some very successful skilled laborers and artisans.

Which actually highlights the unstated cultural elements of class aside from income.

Is an Ivy educated woman working at an NGO for 30k the same class as a shift manager at Walmart making 30k? Is a postdoc at Stanford lower class than a factory worker whose income is triple a postdoc stipend?

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#76

Post by ScottBurson »

dpark wrote: post #63
ryandrake wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's a simpler, binary question: You're either rely on your own labor for a living (in other words, you're N missed paychecks away from zero), or you don't rely on your own labor. Some people think if their number "N" is high enough they can call themselves "middle class" to distinguish themselves from poorer people, but it's a small distinction. At the end of the day, you either have to work for a living or yo…

> If you have to work for a living, your life is similar to everyone else who has to work for a living. Sure you may have more toys than others, but the things you think/worry about from day to day are similar. The things I worry about have very little in common with someone who's working a minimum wage job. Someone on minimum wage with a child probably needs food stamps to even feed their child reliably. I spend mor…

I think you're on the right track here. To me, the middle class is defined not by assets, but by having your survival and security reasonably assured -- to the point, as you say, that you don't have to spend all your time worrying about them. You have to work, but you have some free time and disposable income.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#77

Post by smalldataguy »

refurb wrote: post #74
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very important (for fairness, and for social stability) that the lower class have at least a somewhat realistic possibility of crossing the gap into middle class. If they have to jump all the way to upper class, does that mean that they're more likely to be trapped in lower class? That's a bad outcome for them. (It's fine for the middle class, of course.)

Yes, but this data tells us nothing about mobility. People move from class to class all the time.

I'm not 100%, but pretty sure that the largest predictive factor of any US citizens wealth... is the wealth of their parents.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#78

Post by refurb »

jeffdavis wrote: post #46
tryitnow wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is just stating the middle class is shrinking - and inequality is therefore increasing. And increasing inequality is a problem. The problem with increasing inequality is not necessarily decreasing mean incomes. Inequality is a problem because of the increasing class-based polarization of society, the power differential between different families, and a host of other factors. All of which can be present an…

But is it inequality from one person to another, or just unequal life stages for the same individual? You could imagine a college student from a middle-class background earning very little from 20-30, then being middle-income from 30-40, then upper-income from 40-65, then retired until 85. Their independent life (20+) is 65 years, of which 30 are low-income, 10 middle-income, and 25 high income.

Great point!

Generally incomes and wealth increase with age. If your population is more heavily weighted in one particulat age bracket (baby boomers?), you'll see a shift in wealth distribution, even if everyone's average wealth at a give age remains the exact same.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#79

Post by refurb »

dragonwriter wrote: post #40
refurb wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if the upper class got bigger (in terms of numbers), they must have come from the middle class based on this data. That's a good thing, no?

For them individually, sure, being farther above the median is better. Beyond that, I don't see how it's better in some general sense.

Why not? They are paying more taxes than they were before, benefiting society as a whole.

Let me ask it another way. If some moves from the lower class to the middle class, does that benefit society as a whole (ignoring the taxes).

I would say yes.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#80

Post by Silhouette »

fweespeech wrote: post #55
ryandrake wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's a simpler, binary question: You're either rely on your own labor for a living (in other words, you're N missed paychecks away from zero), or you don't rely on your own labor. Some people think if their number "N" is high enough they can call themselves "middle class" to distinguish themselves from poorer people, but it's a small distinction. At the end of the day, you either have to work for a living or yo…

> Some people think if their number "N" is high enough they can call themselves "middle class" to distinguish themselves from poorer people, but it's a small distinction That isn't true. I work for a living but I also accumulate 5 figures of capital every year, do that for 20-25 years, and I don't have to work for a living anymore. Working class folks don't really have that option. > Sure you may have more toys than…

That is poor financial planning. If you are middle income, you should be saving money so you don't have to work for a living instead of buying more toys.

That is an entirely subjective personal preference. If your goal is to be able to retire early and live off your savings, go ahead. However, if your goal is to also live before you retire and you understand that the only value of money is in the things you value that you can obtain with it, you might make entirely different financial choices.

I could have saved a lot more than I have if my now-wife and I had chosen not to have the wedding we always dreamed of, but no amount of money in the future could replace the memories we have of that day. I could have saved a lot by not going to lessons with top teachers/coaches in my hobbies, but then I would not be as good at things I enjoy doing today, and I would not be able to reach new levels tomorrow. In the case of physical/competitive hobbies, there are some things I simply would never be able to do if I left them to later in life. I could have saved the money I spent on buying a nice new car, but that car has meant I could get to places and do things I would otherwise not have been able to, and again no amount of money can ever replace those experiences.

I am certainly not advocating frivolous spending on things that don't really matter to you, and I am certainly not advocating spending everything you have the day you get it. But the idea that saving everything you can instead of buying some things you value has never made sense to me. It only really makes a difference if you expect that you will one day need all of that money in order to pay for the essentials, and short of catastrophic bad luck it seems unlikely that anyone with the ability to set aside significant savings in the first place will ever be in that position.

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