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The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

npr.org

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Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#61

Post by mikeash »

jazzyk wrote: post #57
mikeash wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clinton is supported by about 50% of Democrats. Trump is supported by about 25% of Republicans. That doesn't add up to anywhere close to "most Americans."

Perhaps. But chances are that these two will become their parties' candidates and then most Americans _will_ have to choose between them. The US has so many smart, hard working people, we deserve better.

I really, really doubt that we'll be forced to choose between Clinton and Trump. Clinton, yes, but the Republicans aren't that insane.

In any case, saying that a broken system forces us to choose the lesser of two evils is quite different from saying that most Americans support one of these two candidates.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#62

Post by lotharbot »

jeffdavis wrote: post #46
tryitnow wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is just stating the middle class is shrinking - and inequality is therefore increasing. And increasing inequality is a problem. The problem with increasing inequality is not necessarily decreasing mean incomes. Inequality is a problem because of the increasing class-based polarization of society, the power differential between different families, and a host of other factors. All of which can be present an…

But is it inequality from one person to another, or just unequal life stages for the same individual? You could imagine a college student from a middle-class background earning very little from 20-30, then being middle-income from 30-40, then upper-income from 40-65, then retired until 85. Their independent life (20+) is 65 years, of which 30 are low-income, 10 middle-income, and 25 high income.

cperciva wrote a piece on this a while back:

http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2011-01-10-inequality-in-equ...

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#63

Post by dpark »

ryandrake wrote: post #41
dragonwriter wrote: post #12

Measuring "class" by income distribution measures like this kind of misses the point; more accurately this is "Most Americans no longer fit a particular definition of 'middle income'". Class distinctions are about significant qualitative distinctions, not points on a simple quantitative distribution. A reasonable upper/middle/lower class distinction could be made where the upper class has capital assets that they can…

To me it's a simpler, binary question: You're either rely on your own labor for a living (in other words, you're N missed paychecks away from zero), or you don't rely on your own labor. Some people think if their number "N" is high enough they can call themselves "middle class" to distinguish themselves from poorer people, but it's a small distinction. At the end of the day, you either have to work for a living or yo…

>If you have to work for a living, your life is similar to everyone else who has to work for a living. Sure you may have more toys than others, but the things you think/worry about from day to day are similar.

The things I worry about have very little in common with someone who's working a minimum wage job. Someone on minimum wage with a child probably needs food stamps to even feed their child reliably. I spend more on daycare for my child every month than most of the people working at the daycare probably even make. Very different worries.

Lower class people are worried about making rent, putting food on the table, and what happens if they lose their jobs. I'm not worried about any of those things except the last, and I'm not particularly worried and that.

We do not have the same worries.

It's true that I cannot live off my assets indefinitely, but it's inaccurate and misleading to pretend that my worries are the same worries that low wage workers have.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#66

Post by capitalsigma »

tempestn wrote: post #45
refurb wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They just took 1/2 of the median and 2x the median as cutoffs. You can argue that's it's arbitrary, but it seems like as good an estimate as any.

2/3 and 2x actually

(2/3) and 2 * (2/3) = 4/3

i.e. what would be one standard deviation if income was perfeclty evenly distributed

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#67

Post by Retra »

petergatsby wrote: post #28
tryitnow wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is just stating the middle class is shrinking - and inequality is therefore increasing. And increasing inequality is a problem. The problem with increasing inequality is not necessarily decreasing mean incomes. Inequality is a problem because of the increasing class-based polarization of society, the power differential between different families, and a host of other factors. All of which can be present an…

I'm not sure that class-based polarization is inherently problematic. Surely some degree of inequality is an inviolable consequence of a society that values both freedom and private ownership. Imagine an America in which the poorest families had two cars and a four-bedroom house, in a safe neighborhood with good schools. Would it then be considered problematic if Gates and Buffet became trillionaires? The problem is…

If you have enough inequality in your society it will stop valuing freedom and private ownership. That's the problem.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#68

Post by Retra »

gweinberg wrote: post #54
daveguy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should be a national "voting day" holiday. Not having one is the equivalent of a poll tax for hourly wage workers.

Having one is the equivalent of a poll tax for the self-employed!

The self employed don't have to negotiate with anyone (from a disadvantaged position) to take a small time away from work.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#69

Post by __44x0 »

mikeash wrote: post #61
jazzyk wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps. But chances are that these two will become their parties' candidates and then most Americans _will_ have to choose between them. The US has so many smart, hard working people, we deserve better.

I really, really doubt that we'll be forced to choose between Clinton and Trump. Clinton, yes, but the Republicans aren't that insane. In any case, saying that a broken system forces us to choose the lesser of two evils is quite different from saying that most Americans support one of these two candidates.

> yes, but the Republicans aren't that insane.

I wouldn't put it past them to choose Trump, but either way, the other leading contenders like Ben Carson or Ted Cruz are even more whacked-out. And god forbid the Bush dynasty would continue...

Of the Republican candidates, the only ones I find less crazy than Trump -- and to be clear, I more or less despise everyone I'm about to list -- are Carly Fiorina, Rand Paul, and perhaps Marco Rubio. Fiorina and Rubio because, maybe, they don't actually believe some of the panderous garbage that they say, and Paul because he occasionally expresses some anti-war sentiment (even if it's motivated by his desire to decrease federal spending).

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#70

Post by kyllo »

ryandrake wrote: post #41
dragonwriter wrote: post #12

Measuring "class" by income distribution measures like this kind of misses the point; more accurately this is "Most Americans no longer fit a particular definition of 'middle income'". Class distinctions are about significant qualitative distinctions, not points on a simple quantitative distribution. A reasonable upper/middle/lower class distinction could be made where the upper class has capital assets that they can…

To me it's a simpler, binary question: You're either rely on your own labor for a living (in other words, you're N missed paychecks away from zero), or you don't rely on your own labor. Some people think if their number "N" is high enough they can call themselves "middle class" to distinguish themselves from poorer people, but it's a small distinction. At the end of the day, you either have to work for a living or yo…

Physical vs. mental labor (aka blue collar and service vs. white collar) is what distinguishes lower and middle class and creates the third category.

Lower class = your income relies on your physical labor

Middle class = your income relies on your mental labor

Upper class = your income relies on your capital and others' labor

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