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The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

npr.org

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Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#41

Post by ryandrake »

dragonwriter wrote: post #12

Measuring "class" by income distribution measures like this kind of misses the point; more accurately this is "Most Americans no longer fit a particular definition of 'middle income'". Class distinctions are about significant qualitative distinctions, not points on a simple quantitative distribution. A reasonable upper/middle/lower class distinction could be made where the upper class has capital assets that they can…

To me it's a simpler, binary question: You're either rely on your own labor for a living (in other words, you're N missed paychecks away from zero), or you don't rely on your own labor. Some people think if their number "N" is high enough they can call themselves "middle class" to distinguish themselves from poorer people, but it's a small distinction. At the end of the day, you either have to work for a living or you don't.

If you have to work for a living, your life is similar to everyone else who has to work for a living. Sure you may have more toys than others, but the things you think/worry about from day to day are similar.

If you are in the class that relies on their assets for a living, you think about entirely different things, and your world view and lifestyle are entirely different. If you ever get a chance to hang around people like this or talk with them, do it--it's eye opening. It's like having an alien encounter.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#42

Post by mikeash »

mtgx wrote: post #15

Yet most Americans have no problem supporting either an asshole billionaire or someone who thinks it's "their turn to be president" and is supported by Wall Street billionaires (the same people responsible for the 2008 economic crash). Most people don't seem to know what's good for them.

Clinton is supported by about 50% of Democrats. Trump is supported by about 25% of Republicans. That doesn't add up to anywhere close to "most Americans."

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#43

Post by jeffdavis »

This could also represent a compression of income-earning years. For instance, if more people spend their twenties earning little, but then their income jumps up a lot by the time they are 40, they may look middle-income for only a few years.

I'm not saying this is what's happening, but based on the numbers and definitions, it's possible.

In general, this kind of snapshot definition trying to capture the middle class is misleading. You should follow individuals over their life to see whether they are thriving or struggling.

This is not even a class mobility issue. It's more of a life cycle issue.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#44

Post by daveguy »

ralfruns wrote: post #17
mtgx wrote: post #15

Yet most Americans have no problem supporting either an asshole billionaire or someone who thinks it's "their turn to be president" and is supported by Wall Street billionaires (the same people responsible for the 2008 economic crash). Most people don't seem to know what's good for them.

People in the lower income bracket don't go to the polls in the same rate as the higher income bracket. Upps forgot the source: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/income-gap-at...

There should be a national "voting day" holiday. Not having one is the equivalent of a poll tax for hourly wage workers.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#45

Post by tempestn »

refurb wrote: post #33
tmuir wrote: post #23

Where do the 42k and 126k numbers come from? Why do they define the middle class. Maybe it varies from page view to page view, but my very first recommended link at the bottom of the story had a breakdown of middle class bounds in 30 different cities, and as one would expect, middle class incomes vary widely across those cities. This article is a perfect example of the meaninglessness of averages in many cases.

They just took 1/2 of the median and 2x the median as cutoffs. You can argue that's it's arbitrary, but it seems like as good an estimate as any.

2/3 and 2x actually

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#46

Post by jeffdavis »

tryitnow wrote: post #10
will_pseudonym wrote: post #2

This is a misleading take on the data. A much better analysis would look at the size of the population who was middle class or upper class. If there is an equal increase in upper class population for every loss of middle class population, that just means that our incomes as a population are increasing. All things equal, both the mean and median would increase in that circumstance. And that's what the data looks like…

The article is just stating the middle class is shrinking - and inequality is therefore increasing. And increasing inequality is a problem. The problem with increasing inequality is not necessarily decreasing mean incomes. Inequality is a problem because of the increasing class-based polarization of society, the power differential between different families, and a host of other factors. All of which can be present an…

But is it inequality from one person to another, or just unequal life stages for the same individual?

You could imagine a college student from a middle-class background earning very little from 20-30, then being middle-income from 30-40, then upper-income from 40-65, then retired until 85.

Their independent life (20+) is 65 years, of which 30 are low-income, 10 middle-income, and 25 high income.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#47

Post by AnimalMuppet »

ryandrake wrote: post #41
dragonwriter wrote: post #12

Measuring "class" by income distribution measures like this kind of misses the point; more accurately this is "Most Americans no longer fit a particular definition of 'middle income'". Class distinctions are about significant qualitative distinctions, not points on a simple quantitative distribution. A reasonable upper/middle/lower class distinction could be made where the upper class has capital assets that they can…

To me it's a simpler, binary question: You're either rely on your own labor for a living (in other words, you're N missed paychecks away from zero), or you don't rely on your own labor. Some people think if their number "N" is high enough they can call themselves "middle class" to distinguish themselves from poorer people, but it's a small distinction. At the end of the day, you either have to work for a living or yo…

I think "middle class" is "working class (by your definition) but headed out". That is, you are middle class if you are working and making enough by doing so to start accumulating capital.

If you're working, and using your surplus to accumulate toys, you're just a wealthier version of lower class (also a not very wise one, in my opinion).

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#48

Post by AnimalMuppet »

jeffdavis wrote: post #46
tryitnow wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is just stating the middle class is shrinking - and inequality is therefore increasing. And increasing inequality is a problem. The problem with increasing inequality is not necessarily decreasing mean incomes. Inequality is a problem because of the increasing class-based polarization of society, the power differential between different families, and a host of other factors. All of which can be present an…

But is it inequality from one person to another, or just unequal life stages for the same individual? You could imagine a college student from a middle-class background earning very little from 20-30, then being middle-income from 30-40, then upper-income from 40-65, then retired until 85. Their independent life (20+) is 65 years, of which 30 are low-income, 10 middle-income, and 25 high income.

Valid point, but I believe that you mean that 10 are low-income.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#49

Post by AnimalMuppet »

will_pseudonym wrote: post #36
refurb wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but if a chunk of the middle class moved to the upper class, is that in and of itself a bad thing? Is it really preferable that no middle class move to the upper class?

Exactly! If we the entirety of the middle class disappeared and reappeared in the upper class, how would that be damaging to the country? If every member had no change or an increase to their income, it seems insane that that could have anything but a positive effect for the economy.

It's very important (for fairness, and for social stability) that the lower class have at least a somewhat realistic possibility of crossing the gap into middle class. If they have to jump all the way to upper class, does that mean that they're more likely to be trapped in lower class? That's a bad outcome for them. (It's fine for the middle class, of course.)

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#50

Post by AnimalMuppet »

daveguy wrote: post #44
ralfruns wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in the lower income bracket don't go to the polls in the same rate as the higher income bracket. Upps forgot the source: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/income-gap-at...

There should be a national "voting day" holiday. Not having one is the equivalent of a poll tax for hourly wage workers.

In my area, polls are open from 9 AM (or maybe earlier - I'm not a morning person) to 9 PM. No matter what your shift, you should be able to find a time to get there without having to take off work.
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