"What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked • Hacker News Board

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#71

Post by grandalf » Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 7:30 AM UTC

djcapelis wrote: post #31

grandalf wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a reality check question: Do you think for a moment that the American CIA doesn't infiltrate foreign networks if i thinks it has a security interest in doing so? I'm very curious about your response.

I think it would be appropriate for people in China (and everyone else, for that matter) to discuss exactly the extent it was occurring and if it was hindering their enterprises there, discuss exactly the effects of such issues. I would have no objection to stories of such things being posted on HN and I wouldn't object to those stories as anti-American. In fact, I think Americans frequently post such stories, we jus…

Those are good points. I do not disagree with any of them, and thanks for the reminder about the many intelligence agencies.

I think that if it were just about discussion and having an opinion it would be owe thing, but this anti-China meme is really growing in force, and seeming to turn into real moral outrage and disgust, which I think are not constructive emotions for understanding another country...

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#72

Post by plinkplonk » Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 7:30 AM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #69

plinkplonk wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Talk to some Chinese - particularly the young ones - and you will find a population very truly eager to attack the West in whatever way they can." Why? I am genuinely curious. I can see why someone (say)in an Islamic society would want to attack the West, but why would a Chinese kid hate the West?

Yeah, the above "they're poor" explanation doesn't really hit the mark. It's a combination of many things, some of which I will probably miss off the top of my head: - Propaganda: The Chinese are educated to be very wary of Western influence. Western societies in media are often portrayed as disorganized and chaotic, so naturally there is aversion to Western ideas (though strangely, not Western products). - Fear: The…

@potatolicious, Thank you that helped a lot

"Think of China as the bullied kid with a grudge - now he's going to fuck you up, and there's not a thing you can do to convince him otherwise. There is definitely a lot of feelings of vengeance involved when it comes to Chinese antagonism of the West."

Wow! Sounds like the world is in for interesting times, then!

"As a Chinese, I'm really, really terrified of China - not because they have a totalitarian regime, but because they have a totalitarian regime with popular support."

As an Indian I'm really really terrified of China because they are right next door and the last time we had a war we had our asses handed to us. ;-)

If China were a democracy, I'd probably go live there for a while. Sounds like a fascinating place and there's just enough of a cultural connection with India (wrt Buddhism and so on) so as not to make it a completely alien place.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#73

Post by grandalf » Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 7:33 AM UTC

djcapelis wrote: post #33

grandalf wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well put! You are right that it's just propaganda. What the propagandists hate to discuss is what we should do about it -- chances are most favor sanctions, warships in the gulf of China, and other neoconservative strong arm tactics.

Your accusations are unproven, irrelevant and baseless. Please provide concrete arguments if you disagree.

Ok, well, what should we do about China?

Also, at what point should we insist that China do what we want to the point of sending in ships, etc.?

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#74

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 9:21 AM UTC

plinkplonk wrote: post #67

gscott wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are the Chinese kid making Barbie dolls all day long, wanting one but you can't afford one on your .10cent an hour salary you might hate the people who are going to enjoy those Barbie dolls too.

That doesn't make too much sense. I live in India and there are a lot of poor people here, (poorer than the people in China). They don't really hate the west. They aspire to the West's living standards, sure. I guess what I am trying to say is relative poverty can be a source of envy. But hate? Enough to delight in attacking the West?

[deleted]

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#75

Post by djcapelis » Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 10:55 AM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #73

djcapelis wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your accusations are unproven, irrelevant and baseless. Please provide concrete arguments if you disagree.

Ok, well, what should we do about China? Also, at what point should we insist that China do what we want to the point of sending in ships, etc.?

I think those are both excellent questions. I'm not sure what we do about it, I don't think anyone is. Google's choice certainly had some flair to it, but probably isn't a general stategy for most relations with China. I'm not sure where that leaves us.

Myself, I'm working towards more research that will hopefully make it harder to attack systems, it's a hard area, but I think there's still more we can do. I think there are some levels of technological measures we can take to help with this issue, though obviously nothing is a panacea.

As for military response, it may well be that eventually that plays a role. (Hopefully at most only involving the ability to set clear lines on what merits military action to hopefully act as a deterrance.) I think many people are working hard to try and get a handle on this issue before it ever goes that far.

In my opinion, the largest problem is right now we do not have a handle on this, so it's really unclear how it all plays out.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#76

Post by hh » Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 12:16 PM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #69

plinkplonk wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Talk to some Chinese - particularly the young ones - and you will find a population very truly eager to attack the West in whatever way they can." Why? I am genuinely curious. I can see why someone (say)in an Islamic society would want to attack the West, but why would a Chinese kid hate the West?

Yeah, the above "they're poor" explanation doesn't really hit the mark. It's a combination of many things, some of which I will probably miss off the top of my head: - Propaganda: The Chinese are educated to be very wary of Western influence. Western societies in media are often portrayed as disorganized and chaotic, so naturally there is aversion to Western ideas (though strangely, not Western products). - Fear: The…

This is the most ridiculous stuff I have ever heard. We Asian loves the west, especially American. I have never heard anyone hates the west like you've mentioned. Bottom line, China wants to be the center of the universe. They would do anything to score a point. They don't have systematically governance. That is why I call them a gang instead.

If they go to great length just to censure some minor stuff, what do you think they would not do?

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#77

Post by pyre » Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 7:21 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #70

pyre wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US/UK empire has done all of the same, and only after using those techniques to gain superpower and first-world status, we start criticizing others for doing it. So at what specific point have they done an 'equal amount of evil' to us so that we can start criticizing them for 'doing more evil than we did?' Without an answer to this question your point is that we can't criticize China for anything ever. This see…

The main point is that the US still does commit some horrible human rights violations. I describe these in detail in my replies to two of your comment's sisters.

What if I also criticize the US for those human rights violations? Am I disallowed from commenting on China just because I live in the US even though I don't agree (and actively denounce) the actions of the US government?

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#78

Post by potatolicious » Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 7:26 PM UTC

hh wrote: post #76

potatolicious wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the above "they're poor" explanation doesn't really hit the mark. It's a combination of many things, some of which I will probably miss off the top of my head: - Propaganda: The Chinese are educated to be very wary of Western influence. Western societies in media are often portrayed as disorganized and chaotic, so naturally there is aversion to Western ideas (though strangely, not Western products). - Fear: The…

This is the most ridiculous stuff I have ever heard. We Asian loves the west, especially American. I have never heard anyone hates the west like you've mentioned. Bottom line, China wants to be the center of the universe. They would do anything to score a point. They don't have systematically governance. That is why I call them a gang instead. If they go to great length just to censure some minor stuff, what do you t…

There are a lot of varieties of Asian - which one are you? I'm basing all of the above off my experiences with the Chinese, particularly college-aged Chinese international students that I've had extensively dealings with in the past.

There is some selection bias here, but this is acknowledged: the Chinese regime doesn't enjoy a great deal of popular support from the working class (read: manual labor), but enjoys widespread support from educated intelligentsia (the sort that would send their kids overseas for education).

I've also surfed through Chinese social networks, and the amount of anti-American and anti-West media on them (and being passed around like LOLcat pics) is pretty alarming. Keep in mind that the vast majority of people on these networks are young, grew up without witnessing the atrocities of the Cultural Revolution, and are the direct beneficiaries of China's capitalism. Oh, they're educated to boot, which makes the whole deal just that much scarier.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#79

Post by jhancock » Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 7:48 PM UTC

pyre wrote: post #49

jhancock wrote: post #11

"This would mean that China would prosecute and disavow IP theft." There are (at least) three major areas where outsourcing to China provides economic benefit to foreign companies: 1 - Wages - Many Chinese are paid a wage that despite China having "minimum wage" laws are significantly below that of the foreign company's home minimum wages. If Chinese workers are paid a "living wage" in parity with that of the home co…

> 2 - Environment - China for the most part has let enforcement of environment law (the law does exist) take a back seat to capturing business. Covering the cost of protecting environment damage raises costs. AFAIK, there are government officials and positions that care about this and try to do their job, but for example, when polluting factories are due for inspection they stop polluting long enough to pass inspecti…

I can see this being the case. One thing people miss while they are bashing the China gov about corruption and oppression is that a great deal of the "bad behavior" in China is caused by business leaders (small and large), not government. There exist fairly good laws protecting worker rights. Unfortunately, if an employer wants to be abusive, they will and its up to the employee to decide how or if they want to fight it.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#80

Post by grandalf » Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 7:49 PM UTC

pyre wrote: post #77

grandalf wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main point is that the US still does commit some horrible human rights violations. I describe these in detail in my replies to two of your comment's sisters.

What if I also criticize the US for those human rights violations? Am I disallowed from commenting on China just because I live in the US even though I don't agree (and actively denounce) the actions of the US government?

Not disallowed, but you should question what the point of critiquing details of other countries' policies unless you seriously favor trade sanctions and all of the suffering they cause.

Part of the story we tell ourselves in the US is that our righteous indignation about other countries is reasonable... meanwhile American citizens are raped every day in American prisons and nobody suggests that other nations boycott the Olympics to nudge us toward human rights improvements.

Since Obama took power there has been tremendous pressure to harm China's export industry, and Obama did this with his recent tire tariffs. How do you convince a bunch of entitled Americans that it's reasonable to harm the economic wellbeing of Chinese tire makers (who are quite a lot poorer than any US worker)? By helping Americans believe that China is morally inferior and thus deserves to be punished.

This is the trend that is shaping up now. Google's move was foolish and plays right into the hands of US warmongers and trade protectionists... also, Google was (at least) showing which results were censored. Baidu offers the Chinese no such information.