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"What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

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Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#61

Post by potatolicious »

hh wrote: post #40
potatolicious wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, the Chinese are fiercely nationalistic - it would not surprise me at all if many of these attacks are being done without government sanction. I would tread carefully on news like this - it's easy to read too much into it, and it's too easy to manipulate, kind of like blaming all communists because one of them set fire to a building.

Are you kidding me? Take a look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_gSasJPs1Y . Chinese Plain-Clothes Officials Block CNN Cameras With Umbrellas In Tienanmen Square. How low can the Chinese government goes? They operated like a gang, no less.

And how does this indicate that these hack attacks are sanctioned or originate from the Chinese government?

Nobody is saying the Chinese government isn't censor-happy and oppressive, but get a grip on yourself man. Talk to some Chinese - particularly the young ones - and you will find a population very truly eager to attack the West in whatever way they can. It's more than likely that a significant number of hacks coming out of China today are occurring out of people's own free will, not by the explicit order of the government.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#62

Post by papersmith »

potatolicious wrote: post #60
papersmith wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on how you define nationalistic. The hundreds of thousands of students who protested at the Tiananmen Square could also be considered nationalistic in some sense of the words.

You really don't understand how the topology of the Chinese political landscape has changed since 1989 - the "new" regime has brought wealth to tens of millions, and the country has seen dramatic modernization in the past decade and half. Not to mention the majority of China's young student population grew up completely divorced from the brutality of the Cultural Revolution. Something like Tiananmen Square simply can…

That's actually my point. "the Chinese are fiercely nationalistic" being too big of a blanket statement, since you are including the baby-boomers who protested all over the country in 1989, and older generations who spent their adulthood under Mao.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#63

Post by plinkplonk »

potatolicious wrote: post #61
hh wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you kidding me? Take a look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_gSasJPs1Y . Chinese Plain-Clothes Officials Block CNN Cameras With Umbrellas In Tienanmen Square. How low can the Chinese government goes? They operated like a gang, no less.

And how does this indicate that these hack attacks are sanctioned or originate from the Chinese government? Nobody is saying the Chinese government isn't censor-happy and oppressive, but get a grip on yourself man. Talk to some Chinese - particularly the young ones - and you will find a population very truly eager to attack the West in whatever way they can. It's more than likely that a significant number of hacks co…

"Talk to some Chinese - particularly the young ones - and you will find a population very truly eager to attack the West in whatever way they can."

Why? I am genuinely curious. I can see why someone (say)in an Islamic society would want to attack the West, but why would a Chinese kid hate the West?

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#64

Post by papersmith »

pyre wrote: post #42
potatolicious wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, the Chinese are fiercely nationalistic - it would not surprise me at all if many of these attacks are being done without government sanction. I would tread carefully on news like this - it's easy to read too much into it, and it's too easy to manipulate, kind of like blaming all communists because one of them set fire to a building.

> The thing is, the Chinese are fiercely nationalistic Maybe you mean the Han Chinese. Certainly the native Tibetans and the peoples in the Muslim/Islamic regions may not share this sentiment (Tibetan Buddhists and Muslims are considered 'terrorist religions.' IIRC, it's illegal to be Muslim in China and all new Tibetan Buddhist monks are required to become Party members).

"IIRC, it's illegal to be Muslim in China and all new Tibetan Buddhist monks are required to become Party members."

Dude, the Muslim part is plain false. I lived in Xi'an, a city with a large population of Hui Muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui_people

I don't know where you heard about the Tibetan Buddhist required to join the communist party, but it just doesn't sound right. Joining the party is considered a privilege in China, you get all kinds of benefits, but mainly the ability to vote. I kinda doubt they would give this kind of political privilege to Tibetan monks.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#65

Post by gscott »

plinkplonk wrote: post #63
potatolicious wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how does this indicate that these hack attacks are sanctioned or originate from the Chinese government? Nobody is saying the Chinese government isn't censor-happy and oppressive, but get a grip on yourself man. Talk to some Chinese - particularly the young ones - and you will find a population very truly eager to attack the West in whatever way they can. It's more than likely that a significant number of hacks co…

"Talk to some Chinese - particularly the young ones - and you will find a population very truly eager to attack the West in whatever way they can." Why? I am genuinely curious. I can see why someone (say)in an Islamic society would want to attack the West, but why would a Chinese kid hate the West?

If you are the Chinese kid making Barbie dolls all day long, wanting one but you can't afford one on your .10cent an hour salary you might hate the people who are going to enjoy those Barbie dolls too.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#66

Post by grandalf »

ellyagg wrote: post #30
grandalf wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you go back in time 100 or 150 years all of those criticisms apply to the US. What is it about the year 2010 that makes your moral outrage appropriate? The US/UK empire has done all of the same, and only after using those techniques to gain superpower and first-world status, we start criticizing others for doing it.

We can criticize it because this isn't a morality game. China doesn't rack up evil chips because the US behaved evilly in the past. There's no score to settle. What they're doing is wrong and hurts us and the world right now , regardless of who did what in the past. We argue for principles that allow everyone to prosper. We argue for the golden rule and the categorical imperative.

You seem to be arguing that you think China's third world status and cultural history are completely irrelevant, and that just because the US has recently accomplished an arbitrarily chosen level of morality it is appropriate to harass and berate China over it.

It would be a far better use of one's time (in America) to focus on the atrocities that exist in our current system. Throwing stones at China is absurd, unless you're a neocon who wants to send the US naval fleet into the waters near China and perhaps launch targeted strikes intended at getting China to change its official policy (or, more likely, making China's leaders look bad and causing social instability).

Some modern US atrocities are:

- The prison system. Inmates are routinely, predictably raped, yet inmate safety is not improved. This is an awful situation in 2010 America that rivals what has occurred in any labor camp or gulag anywhere and in any time.

- Immigration policy. The US is an apartheid state in which the haves (aka citizens) and have-nots (aka non-citizens) are given drastically different rights. Illegals live in constant fear of deportation and are thus afraid to seek basic healthcare, law enforcement, etc., which makes them victim to untold suffering and anguish.

- Don't forget Gitmo and Abu Ghraib... two examples of severe human rights violations by the US. Unlike with US prisoners (ironically) there would be more outrage over these issues if the facts weren't censored from public view.

These are just a few. Worrying about China is a big waste of time.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#67

Post by plinkplonk »

gscott wrote: post #65
plinkplonk wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Talk to some Chinese - particularly the young ones - and you will find a population very truly eager to attack the West in whatever way they can." Why? I am genuinely curious. I can see why someone (say)in an Islamic society would want to attack the West, but why would a Chinese kid hate the West?

If you are the Chinese kid making Barbie dolls all day long, wanting one but you can't afford one on your .10cent an hour salary you might hate the people who are going to enjoy those Barbie dolls too.

That doesn't make too much sense. I live in India and there are a lot of poor people here, (poorer than the people in China). They don't really hate the west. They aspire to the West's living standards, sure.

I guess what I am trying to say is relative poverty can be a source of envy. But hate? Enough to delight in attacking the West?

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#68

Post by grandalf »

yumraj wrote: post #35
grandalf wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you go back in time 100 or 150 years all of those criticisms apply to the US. What is it about the year 2010 that makes your moral outrage appropriate? The US/UK empire has done all of the same, and only after using those techniques to gain superpower and first-world status, we start criticizing others for doing it.

OK, I'll bite. So, per your argument, just because the Spaniards butchered the natives in the Americas and so did the early US settlers, we should not not have criticized the Nazi Germany. After all they were also different, weren't they? If we go by your argument, the humanity will never learn from it's own mistakes and crimes of the past, because someone in the past would have done something similarly evil.

Your statement inadvertently underscores my own point.

Do you seriously think that the US entered WW2 to stop Nazi atrocities? The US entered because its interests were threatened and it focused its stateside propaganda effort on Nazi atrocities.

Similarly, the anti-China propaganda serves to ready Americans for war, etc. The fact is, most Chinese people are living happy, peaceful lives and care far more about their own family, work, and friends then they do about what results pop up in Google.

Obama has already begun a trade war with his tire tariffs... a massive embarrassment to the US and a loss of any meager moral high ground we may have had on issues of economic freedom.

There's nothing wrong with finding fault in some of China's policies. But isn't that the role of the Chinese people? With Americans being raped in prisons every day, should we really focus on Chinese human rights atrocities?

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#69

Post by potatolicious »

plinkplonk wrote: post #63
potatolicious wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how does this indicate that these hack attacks are sanctioned or originate from the Chinese government? Nobody is saying the Chinese government isn't censor-happy and oppressive, but get a grip on yourself man. Talk to some Chinese - particularly the young ones - and you will find a population very truly eager to attack the West in whatever way they can. It's more than likely that a significant number of hacks co…

"Talk to some Chinese - particularly the young ones - and you will find a population very truly eager to attack the West in whatever way they can." Why? I am genuinely curious. I can see why someone (say)in an Islamic society would want to attack the West, but why would a Chinese kid hate the West?

Yeah, the above "they're poor" explanation doesn't really hit the mark.

It's a combination of many things, some of which I will probably miss off the top of my head:

- Propaganda: The Chinese are educated to be very wary of Western influence. Western societies in media are often portrayed as disorganized and chaotic, so naturally there is aversion to Western ideas (though strangely, not Western products).

- Fear: There is a consistent belief (not unique to China) that America unduly uses its influence to exploit other nations for its own benefit. The education system encourages the attitude of "now it's our turn" with regards to their current economic boom. When Western countries do things like, say, discuss limitations on carbon emissions, the Chinese see this as deliberate sabotage of their economy fueled by jealousy of their success. There is a fairly prevalent belief that the US is out to "get" China, and that it's China's rightful turn to be the dominant global player.

- History: The Chinese have long proclaimed to have the richest history and was in fact the most powerful empire on Earth for significant periods of time through its history. Through nepotism and corruption the Qing dynasty fell to European conquest, and China was forced to accept extremely unfavourable surrender terms, and has basically been kicked around globally since then... until now. Think of China as the bullied kid with a grudge - now he's going to fuck you up, and there's not a thing you can do to convince him otherwise. There is definitely a lot of feelings of vengeance involved when it comes to Chinese antagonism of the West.

As a Chinese, I'm really, really terrified of China - not because they have a totalitarian regime, but because they have a totalitarian regime with popular support.

Also, there is a widespread belief that nobody will watch out for Chinese interests except the Chinese... so despite the imperfections of their government, many will defend it vehemently - because everyone else is out to get them.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#70

Post by grandalf »

pyre wrote: post #54
grandalf wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you go back in time 100 or 150 years all of those criticisms apply to the US. What is it about the year 2010 that makes your moral outrage appropriate? The US/UK empire has done all of the same, and only after using those techniques to gain superpower and first-world status, we start criticizing others for doing it.

> The US/UK empire has done all of the same, and only after using those techniques to gain superpower and first-world status, we start criticizing others for doing it. So at what specific point have they done an 'equal amount of evil' to us so that we can start criticizing them for 'doing more evil than we did?' Without an answer to this question your point is that we can't criticize China for anything ever. This see…

The main point is that the US still does commit some horrible human rights violations. I describe these in detail in my replies to two of your comment's sisters.
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