"What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked • Hacker News Board

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#21

Post by DougBTX » Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 10:32 PM UTC

shpxnvz wrote: post #10

swombat wrote: post #3

While I found the original article believable and interesting, I can't help but wonder whether there's more than meets the eye to all this "Oh yeah, China is evil" movement that's developing... The US government has been trying to get China to "behave" for quite some time. One of the very obvious points of contention is copyright law - as someone once said, "Chinese copyright is the right to copy anything they want".…

It's especially interesting given that the U.S. model for IP is pragmatic rather than ideologic, i.e. temporary government-granted monopolies are a necessary evil we accept in order to further technological and creative progress for the benefit of all citizens. Considering the opinion many here have that innovation in the U.S. is stifled rather than encouraged under the modern politicized IP model, it might be enligh…

temporary

Practically speaking, copyrights are perpetual in the US. If something is copyrighted for life plus 90 years, I'm not going to see anything made during my lifetime enter the public domain naturally.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#22

Post by jhancock » Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 10:35 PM UTC

pchristensen wrote: post #18

jhancock wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can find many examples of China or other countries playing the bully. You'll get no disagreement from me. Your point that "American CEO needs to think long term before moving jobs to China" gets closer to where we may find a solution. The trouble is that CEOs do not concern themselves with human rights in China or Intellectual Property other than their own. They make decisions for the most part on immediate value…

But he's trying to show that any company that's concerned about its IP should worry about sending jobs to China, even if it's just for self-interest.

If every CEO was a devote human, environment, and IP rights advocate and they all agreed to protecting these rights in the same manner, we wouldn't have a problem on this side of the equation.

Government and their proxy organizations, such as the WTO, are the ones that are supposed to level the playing field to ensure the CEOs have their hands bound on rules for engaging with developing countries. I do not believe we are close to handling this well.

[EDIT] It is fair to say that some foreign entities do a better job at respecting "global" thinking in regards to human, environment, and IP rights for their China engagements. As an example of worker "preference", several years ago, a poll was published (I think it was the China Daily, but I could be wrong) asking workers what boss would they rather have. The results, in order of preference: U.S., European (seen as more strict than the Americans), local Chinese, non-mainland Chinese (Taiwan, HK). These poll results seem in line with my experience.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#23

Post by grandalf » Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 10:40 PM UTC

maxklein wrote: post #4

This anti-china propaganda on the internet at the moment is sickening. If you want to buy into the China Removes Avatar from Cinemas and Rides With Hitler, then go on, but I'm not going to involve myself in any more of these discussions. China is trying to develop for 1/4 of the worlds population in a system that is different to yours, but is similar to the system that has been in place for 5000 years of chinese civi…

Well put! You are right that it's just propaganda. What the propagandists hate to discuss is what we should do about it -- chances are most favor sanctions, warships in the gulf of China, and other neoconservative strong arm tactics.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#24

Post by grandalf » Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 10:42 PM UTC

djcapelis wrote: post #5

maxklein wrote: post #4

This anti-china propaganda on the internet at the moment is sickening. If you want to buy into the China Removes Avatar from Cinemas and Rides With Hitler, then go on, but I'm not going to involve myself in any more of these discussions. China is trying to develop for 1/4 of the worlds population in a system that is different to yours, but is similar to the system that has been in place for 5000 years of chinese civi…

China has not been conducting attacks on foreign companies via the Internet for 5000 years and it's not inappropriate to question an environment which forces US-based companies to deal with sophisticated computer attacks just because they're doing something China doesn't like. We've been very good about ignoring what China does in China. (One could argue that Americans, myself included, are exceptionally good at this…

Just a reality check question: Do you think for a moment that the American CIA doesn't infiltrate foreign networks if i thinks it has a security interest in doing so?

I'm very curious about your response.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#25

Post by chrischen » Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 10:43 PM UTC

profquail wrote: post #19

yread wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide a reference for the tens of thousands of hackers to break into companies and servers? Surely there would be some whistle-blowers, after all hackers are such an unreliable bunch! That's exactly what the parent is talking about: all this smells fishy. Google says it and 34 other companies have been attacked and the world goes crazy. Companies exist to make profit, government is here for security. I thin…

Yep, here you go: http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2010/01/13/chinas-sophistcated-ha... The FBI report estimates that since 2003, the Chinese Army has specifically developed a network of over 30,000 Chinese military cyberspies, plus more than 150,000 private-sector computer experts, whose mission is to steal American military and technological secrets and cause mischief in government and financial services.

Why don't we pump more money into our cyber armed forces too?

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#26

Post by grandalf » Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 10:44 PM UTC

yumraj wrote: post #12

maxklein wrote: post #4

This anti-china propaganda on the internet at the moment is sickening. If you want to buy into the China Removes Avatar from Cinemas and Rides With Hitler, then go on, but I'm not going to involve myself in any more of these discussions. China is trying to develop for 1/4 of the worlds population in a system that is different to yours, but is similar to the system that has been in place for 5000 years of chinese civi…

Wow, you make your point and then run away stating "I'm not going to involve myself in any more of these discussions.", how nice. First of all, China was not communist for 5000 years, so not sure where that is coming from. No one is criticizing China for being different, all countries in the World are different, no two are the same, yet we criticize some and admire others. China is being criticized for: 1) Complete a…

If you go back in time 100 or 150 years all of those criticisms apply to the US. What is it about the year 2010 that makes your moral outrage appropriate?

The US/UK empire has done all of the same, and only after using those techniques to gain superpower and first-world status, we start criticizing others for doing it.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#27

Post by PieSquared » Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 10:46 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #20

PieSquared wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess these are just the effects of Google's decision. As for 'if it's different, kill it': I've noticed this in my discussions about China. Many of the people I talked to that supported China's handling of things (or were themselves Chinese) disagreed with me on a fundamental value basis which you can't argue. I value human rights far, far above nationalism, yet those people did not. I simply do not see how they c…

I don't disagree with your views, as such. I feel comfortable judging countries on the merits of their policies and track records, etc. However, the real question is, what do you think we should do about it? Consider our range of options: - learning Mandarin and translating controversial English language documents, then distributing them into China. - Traveling to China carrying a hard drive full of uncensored wikipe…

Everything you've said sounds very logical to me. We don't want to accept what China is doing and go with it, but we certainly don't want to go with embargoes or anything drastic. Things change slowly, and we need to realize that. Demanding things won't work - particularly, I think, in China's case, where responding to a demand would surely hurt their sense of nationalism which they (I think?) value highly.

I'm confused at your last statement though. What about KKK protests? They should be allowed and protected. Free speech is for everyone, regardless of opinion. That's the whole point of it.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#28

Post by grandalf » Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 11:03 PM UTC

PieSquared wrote: post #27

grandalf wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with your views, as such. I feel comfortable judging countries on the merits of their policies and track records, etc. However, the real question is, what do you think we should do about it? Consider our range of options: - learning Mandarin and translating controversial English language documents, then distributing them into China. - Traveling to China carrying a hard drive full of uncensored wikipe…

Everything you've said sounds very logical to me. We don't want to accept what China is doing and go with it, but we certainly don't want to go with embargoes or anything drastic. Things change slowly, and we need to realize that. Demanding things won't work - particularly, I think, in China's case, where responding to a demand would surely hurt their sense of nationalism which they (I think?) value highly. I'm confu…

That was my point about the KKK protests too... I brought it up b/c many people claim to support free speech but oppose some kinds of free speech, and in essence that's the sort of free speech we have in the US (the KKK has been banned from having its parades, etc.). In China, there is no pretense of free speech, yet some things are allowed and some disallowed.

I agree with you that demands won't work, and will probably make things worse. I think the danger of the sort of anti-China propaganda that we're seeing is that it's becoming an emotional groundswell quite similar to the anti-Saddam groundswel that preceeded the Iraq war. Not quite as bad, but there could always be some minor event (a plane shot down accidentally, a person detained, etc.) that would rapidly transform things into an irrational state where we'd have politicians seriously calling for warlike behavior.

I think the most important bottom line is that for the vast majority of Chinese people, the status quo will be better for their future and their families than if the US enacts sanctions or intervenes militarily. If we advocate making those people worse off (through sanctions, etc), we should realize that doing so without any cost to ourselves entails great hubris -- the core hubris of neoconservatism.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#29

Post by PieSquared » Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 11:10 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #28

PieSquared wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you've said sounds very logical to me. We don't want to accept what China is doing and go with it, but we certainly don't want to go with embargoes or anything drastic. Things change slowly, and we need to realize that. Demanding things won't work - particularly, I think, in China's case, where responding to a demand would surely hurt their sense of nationalism which they (I think?) value highly. I'm confu…

That was my point about the KKK protests too... I brought it up b/c many people claim to support free speech but oppose some kinds of free speech, and in essence that's the sort of free speech we have in the US (the KKK has been banned from having its parades, etc.). In China, there is no pretense of free speech, yet some things are allowed and some disallowed. I agree with you that demands won't work, and will proba…

It's true... but I assume (and hope) that US politicians are not stupid enough to advocate anything actively harsh against China. China is nearly a superpower, and we do not need anything like another Cold war. (Not that it would be as bad, but two large countries in a state of conflict do note bode well for their inhabitants.)

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#30

Post by ellyagg » Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 11:14 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #26

yumraj wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you make your point and then run away stating "I'm not going to involve myself in any more of these discussions.", how nice. First of all, China was not communist for 5000 years, so not sure where that is coming from. No one is criticizing China for being different, all countries in the World are different, no two are the same, yet we criticize some and admire others. China is being criticized for: 1) Complete a…

If you go back in time 100 or 150 years all of those criticisms apply to the US. What is it about the year 2010 that makes your moral outrage appropriate? The US/UK empire has done all of the same, and only after using those techniques to gain superpower and first-world status, we start criticizing others for doing it.

We can criticize it because this isn't a morality game. China doesn't rack up evil chips because the US behaved evilly in the past. There's no score to settle.

What they're doing is wrong and hurts us and the world right now, regardless of who did what in the past. We argue for principles that allow everyone to prosper. We argue for the golden rule and the categorical imperative.