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"What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

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Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#11

Post by jhancock »

"This would mean that China would prosecute and disavow IP theft."

There are (at least) three major areas where outsourcing to China provides economic benefit to foreign companies:

1 - Wages - Many Chinese are paid a wage that despite China having "minimum wage" laws are significantly below that of the foreign company's home minimum wages. If Chinese workers are paid a "living wage" in parity with that of the home country, the economics of outsourcing to China take a hit.

2 - Environment - China for the most part has let enforcement of environment law (the law does exist) take a back seat to capturing business. Covering the cost of protecting environment damage raises costs.

3 - Intellectual Property - Protecting IP increases cost and is for the most part a long term "foreign tax", not an initial capital investment.

Start doing the above three "right" and doing business in China becomes unprofitable for many.

The author of the article continues to express this as a one-sided problem: "We look forward to having China as a real partner in the world, not on its own private terms, but on terms well understood by global trading partners."

I support positive change in regards to doing business with China. I do not see how this can happen without more objective discussion, which would include how "global trading partners" contribute to the problems.

I'm with swombat and maxklein on this one. I'm going to start flagging HN submissions that only paint half the picture.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#12

Post by yumraj »

maxklein wrote: post #4

This anti-china propaganda on the internet at the moment is sickening. If you want to buy into the China Removes Avatar from Cinemas and Rides With Hitler, then go on, but I'm not going to involve myself in any more of these discussions. China is trying to develop for 1/4 of the worlds population in a system that is different to yours, but is similar to the system that has been in place for 5000 years of chinese civi…

Wow, you make your point and then run away stating "I'm not going to involve myself in any more of these discussions.", how nice.

First of all, China was not communist for 5000 years, so not sure where that is coming from.

No one is criticizing China for being different, all countries in the World are different, no two are the same, yet we criticize some and admire others.

China is being criticized for:

1) Complete and utter disregard of IP of companies in other countries. Ex: Huawei vs Cisco, IP theft against Google and other 30+ companies and numerous others.

2) More example of blatant copies of cars: http://www.autoblog.com/2005/04/16/chinese-copy-cats/

3) Censoring of information to its citizens. Even Iran, from what I can tell, is better than China at the moment.

4) Organized, and fairly obviously state sponsored, network intrusion attacks on other countries.

5) Human rights violations, whether in Tibet, or any other place.

6) Complete disregard to environment.

7) Hegemony of neighboring, and much smaller, states.

8) Australia blocks investment of China in Rio Tinto, within next few days China arrest Rio Tinto's China head in espionage charges.

The list goes on and goes, and none of the above is fabricated, it's all public news

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#13

Post by jhancock »

hh wrote: post #9

I am not surprised by this action. Bottomline, China is a big bully. You want example? China claims all of South China Sea http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8047206.stm China that sent 250,000 troop over to teach Vietnam a lesson during 1979 war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War . On and on...we need to be tough on China. American CEO needs to think long term before moving jobs to China.

You can find many examples of China or other countries playing the bully. You'll get no disagreement from me.

Your point that "American CEO needs to think long term before moving jobs to China" gets closer to where we may find a solution. The trouble is that CEOs do not concern themselves with human rights in China or Intellectual Property other than their own. They make decisions for the most part on immediate value creation for shareholders.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#14

Post by [deleted] »

DarkShikari wrote: post #8
maxklein wrote: post #4

This anti-china propaganda on the internet at the moment is sickening. If you want to buy into the China Removes Avatar from Cinemas and Rides With Hitler, then go on, but I'm not going to involve myself in any more of these discussions. China is trying to develop for 1/4 of the worlds population in a system that is different to yours, but is similar to the system that has been in place for 5000 years of chinese civi…

So if, say, Germany was found to have hired tens of thousands of hackers to break into companies and servers around the world, we should just chalk it up to their "different system" and let them off with a slap on the wrist? Australia is currently attempting to censor movies, the internet, and video games in rather absurd ways--and just like China, they're getting criticized for it. Why should China get special treat…

[deleted]

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#15

Post by sketerpot »

hh wrote: post #9

I am not surprised by this action. Bottomline, China is a big bully. You want example? China claims all of South China Sea http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8047206.stm China that sent 250,000 troop over to teach Vietnam a lesson during 1979 war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War . On and on...we need to be tough on China. American CEO needs to think long term before moving jobs to China.

It's remarkably ineffective bullying. Oh no, the web site was down for several minutes, and some unnecessary expenses were incurred! We're doomed!

What these guys need to learn to do is say "Fuck you, you're an idiot, and here is a coherent rebuttal:" and submit it to the news aggregators that gave the original article its popularity. There are enough contrarians that it should be easy to get a lot of people to read your rebuttal and take it seriously. Launching some half-assed attack on a server is the equivalent of just flinging poo, and it just doesn't work.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#16

Post by yread »

DarkShikari wrote: post #8
maxklein wrote: post #4

This anti-china propaganda on the internet at the moment is sickening. If you want to buy into the China Removes Avatar from Cinemas and Rides With Hitler, then go on, but I'm not going to involve myself in any more of these discussions. China is trying to develop for 1/4 of the worlds population in a system that is different to yours, but is similar to the system that has been in place for 5000 years of chinese civi…

So if, say, Germany was found to have hired tens of thousands of hackers to break into companies and servers around the world, we should just chalk it up to their "different system" and let them off with a slap on the wrist? Australia is currently attempting to censor movies, the internet, and video games in rather absurd ways--and just like China, they're getting criticized for it. Why should China get special treat…

Can you provide a reference for the tens of thousands of hackers to break into companies and servers? Surely there would be some whistle-blowers, after all hackers are such an unreliable bunch! That's exactly what the parent is talking about: all this smells fishy. Google says it and 34 other companies have been attacked and the world goes crazy. Companies exist to make profit, government is here for security. I think it is quite realistic to assume that Google did it to make more money, see http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1062059

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#17

Post by jhancock »

PieSquared wrote: post #7
maxklein wrote: post #4

This anti-china propaganda on the internet at the moment is sickening. If you want to buy into the China Removes Avatar from Cinemas and Rides With Hitler, then go on, but I'm not going to involve myself in any more of these discussions. China is trying to develop for 1/4 of the worlds population in a system that is different to yours, but is similar to the system that has been in place for 5000 years of chinese civi…

I guess these are just the effects of Google's decision. As for 'if it's different, kill it': I've noticed this in my discussions about China. Many of the people I talked to that supported China's handling of things (or were themselves Chinese) disagreed with me on a fundamental value basis which you can't argue. I value human rights far, far above nationalism, yet those people did not. I simply do not see how they c…

"Clearly, the current system of suppression isn't working perfectly."

No argument there. How would you do it differently?

I have to ignore the history comparisons by you and more so the parent as they cover far too large time periods and I'm only familiar with China of the last 10 years.

China's leadership, for the most part, makes decisions based on controlling their own domain. I believe a balanced solution requires wealthy countries that trade with China to take a uniform stance to protect workers, environment, and property everywhere they do business. Citizens of these countries and their leaders have to push for this as China clearly is going to simply protect their side of the equation.

Which country or group of countries are going to step forward in a unified front to create balance? What conditions will force their hand? Perhaps we are seeing those conditions unfold right now. Time will tell.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#18

Post by pchristensen »

jhancock wrote: post #13
hh wrote: post #9

I am not surprised by this action. Bottomline, China is a big bully. You want example? China claims all of South China Sea http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8047206.stm China that sent 250,000 troop over to teach Vietnam a lesson during 1979 war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War . On and on...we need to be tough on China. American CEO needs to think long term before moving jobs to China.

You can find many examples of China or other countries playing the bully. You'll get no disagreement from me. Your point that "American CEO needs to think long term before moving jobs to China" gets closer to where we may find a solution. The trouble is that CEOs do not concern themselves with human rights in China or Intellectual Property other than their own. They make decisions for the most part on immediate value…

But he's trying to show that any company that's concerned about its IP should worry about sending jobs to China, even if it's just for self-interest.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#19

Post by profquail »

yread wrote: post #16
DarkShikari wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if, say, Germany was found to have hired tens of thousands of hackers to break into companies and servers around the world, we should just chalk it up to their "different system" and let them off with a slap on the wrist? Australia is currently attempting to censor movies, the internet, and video games in rather absurd ways--and just like China, they're getting criticized for it. Why should China get special treat…

Can you provide a reference for the tens of thousands of hackers to break into companies and servers? Surely there would be some whistle-blowers, after all hackers are such an unreliable bunch! That's exactly what the parent is talking about: all this smells fishy. Google says it and 34 other companies have been attacked and the world goes crazy. Companies exist to make profit, government is here for security. I thin…

Yep, here you go:

http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2010/01/13/chinas-sophistcated-ha...

  The FBI report estimates that since 2003, the Chinese Army
  has specifically developed a network of over 30,000 Chinese
  military cyberspies, plus more than 150,000 private-sector
  computer experts, whose mission is to steal American
  military and technological secrets and cause mischief in
  government and financial services.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#20

Post by grandalf »

PieSquared wrote: post #7
maxklein wrote: post #4

This anti-china propaganda on the internet at the moment is sickening. If you want to buy into the China Removes Avatar from Cinemas and Rides With Hitler, then go on, but I'm not going to involve myself in any more of these discussions. China is trying to develop for 1/4 of the worlds population in a system that is different to yours, but is similar to the system that has been in place for 5000 years of chinese civi…

I guess these are just the effects of Google's decision. As for 'if it's different, kill it': I've noticed this in my discussions about China. Many of the people I talked to that supported China's handling of things (or were themselves Chinese) disagreed with me on a fundamental value basis which you can't argue. I value human rights far, far above nationalism, yet those people did not. I simply do not see how they c…

I don't disagree with your views, as such. I feel comfortable judging countries on the merits of their policies and track records, etc.

However, the real question is, what do you think we should do about it?

Consider our range of options:

- learning Mandarin and translating controversial English language documents, then distributing them into China.

- Traveling to China carrying a hard drive full of uncensored wikipedia pages.

- boycotting Chinese products

- finding an activist (terrorist according to the Chinese government) charity and donating a few dollars.

- Lobbying your local officials to support trade/economic sanctions on China (sanctions create intentional non-death suffering intended to inspire political uprisings).

- Lobbying your local officials to advocate for a zero tolerance policy on human rights violations from US trading partners, etc.

All of these specify a clear course of action and have a fairly expectable outcome.

But suppose your goal is one of the following:

- To have the US send war ships into the oceans near China.

- To have the US impose sanctions on other nations that trade with China (sanctions create intentional non-death suffering intended to inspire political uprisings).

- To have the US demand the release of all Chinese political prisoners with a threat of selling arms to China's enemies if it fails to comply.

As you can see, we start from basic moral outrage and find ourselves very quickly sounding like raging neoconservatives.

My view is that we should REMOVE all trade barriers with China and increase immigration from China by 10000% over 5 years. I elaborated in the previous thread about the causes of China's behavior (and the existence of much similar behavior on the part of a slightly younger USA)...

Also, if you're concerned about censorship, consider the JFK assassination and how a major event (seemingly a very significant conspiracy of some kind to overthrow the US government) has been kept top secret, etc. Is it really that much of a stretch that China wishes to suppress knowledge of its own governmental overthrow attempt?

If, at the time of the JFK assassination, there had been dozens of Chinese journalists covering the event and getting camera footage, firsthand accounts, etc., then perhaps the US would have tried some fairly disreputable ways of censoring the info after the fact. I am no expert on this, but it seems to me that if it was just one crazy guy with a gun, then all of the information should have been declassified long ago.

Americans tend to put things like protests on a pedestal... but what about KKK protests in the US? Many Americans pat themselves on the back and support the banning of the expression of such views. I find the views of the KKK appalling, but we either have free speech or we don't... we either have full transparency or we have censorship. China is no different.

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