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"What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

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Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has not been conducting attacks on foreign companies via the Internet for 5000 years and it's not inappropriate to question an environment which forces US-based companies to deal with sophisticated computer attacks just because they're doing something China doesn't like. We've been very good about ignoring what China does in China. (One could argue that Americans, myself included, are exceptionally good at this…

Just a reality check question: Do you think for a moment that the American CIA doesn't infiltrate foreign networks if i thinks it has a security interest in doing so? I'm very curious about your response.

I think it would be appropriate for people in China (and everyone else, for that matter) to discuss exactly the extent it was occurring and if it was hindering their enterprises there, discuss exactly the effects of such issues.

I would have no objection to stories of such things being posted on HN and I wouldn't object to those stories as anti-American. In fact, I think Americans frequently post such stories, we just often don't have good intelligence on what our government is doing.

That said, as a security researcher who has read some of the reports involved, I do think the PRC may in fact be operating on a far broader range of targets than our own government. In particularly their tendency to include any corporations they want is probably different than how we do things most (but not all) of the time. These may or may not just be stylistic differences and I would welcome a debate on which ones were more troublesome.

I would not blast such stories as racist, which is what the poster I was responding to was essentially doing.

(As an aside, just because it's a pet peeve: Please, the CIA? They're not the ones you have to be concerned with, the American government has a broad and vast array of different intelligence agencies, the CIA is not the most likely one to be doing this type of work. The CIA's job is to be one of the most visible intelligence agencies, a job they do very well.)

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, here you go: http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2010/01/13/chinas-sophistcated-ha... The FBI report estimates that since 2003, the Chinese Army has specifically developed a network of over 30,000 Chinese military cyberspies, plus more than 150,000 private-sector computer experts, whose mission is to steal American military and technological secrets and cause mischief in government and financial services.

Why don't we pump more money into our cyber armed forces too?

We're trying, but for the most part we haven't yet developed the type of comprehensive strategy for these types of operations that the PRC has. You should read the US-China Economic and Security Review Commission's report linked from Google's blog entry.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#33
post #4

This anti-china propaganda on the internet at the moment is sickening. If you want to buy into the China Removes Avatar from Cinemas and Rides With Hitler, then go on, but I'm not going to involve myself in any more of these discussions. China is trying to develop for 1/4 of the worlds population in a system that is different to yours, but is similar to the system that has been in place for 5000 years of chinese civi…

Well put! You are right that it's just propaganda. What the propagandists hate to discuss is what we should do about it -- chances are most favor sanctions, warships in the gulf of China, and other neoconservative strong arm tactics.

Your accusations are unproven, irrelevant and baseless. Please provide concrete arguments if you disagree.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#34
post #4

This anti-china propaganda on the internet at the moment is sickening. If you want to buy into the China Removes Avatar from Cinemas and Rides With Hitler, then go on, but I'm not going to involve myself in any more of these discussions. China is trying to develop for 1/4 of the worlds population in a system that is different to yours, but is similar to the system that has been in place for 5000 years of chinese civi…

China has not been conducting attacks on foreign companies via the Internet for 5000 years and it's not inappropriate to question an environment which forces US-based companies to deal with sophisticated computer attacks just because they're doing something China doesn't like. We've been very good about ignoring what China does in China. (One could argue that Americans, myself included, are exceptionally good at this…

While I agree that the criticism is well-deserved, industrial espionage is really nothing new.

Google's move certainly deserves the spotlight, but I find the sudden shift of attention to industrial espionage a bit knee-jerking and sensationalist.

Heck, shouldn't you be more worried about military espionage, which has been happening for ages in every country?

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#35
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you make your point and then run away stating "I'm not going to involve myself in any more of these discussions.", how nice. First of all, China was not communist for 5000 years, so not sure where that is coming from. No one is criticizing China for being different, all countries in the World are different, no two are the same, yet we criticize some and admire others. China is being criticized for: 1) Complete a…

If you go back in time 100 or 150 years all of those criticisms apply to the US. What is it about the year 2010 that makes your moral outrage appropriate? The US/UK empire has done all of the same, and only after using those techniques to gain superpower and first-world status, we start criticizing others for doing it.

OK, I'll bite.

So, per your argument, just because the Spaniards butchered the natives in the Americas and so did the early US settlers, we should not not have criticized the Nazi Germany. After all they were also different, weren't they?

If we go by your argument, the humanity will never learn from it's own mistakes and crimes of the past, because someone in the past would have done something similarly evil.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess these are just the effects of Google's decision. As for 'if it's different, kill it': I've noticed this in my discussions about China. Many of the people I talked to that supported China's handling of things (or were themselves Chinese) disagreed with me on a fundamental value basis which you can't argue. I value human rights far, far above nationalism, yet those people did not. I simply do not see how they c…

I don't disagree with your views, as such. I feel comfortable judging countries on the merits of their policies and track records, etc. However, the real question is, what do you think we should do about it? Consider our range of options: - learning Mandarin and translating controversial English language documents, then distributing them into China. - Traveling to China carrying a hard drive full of uncensored wikipe…

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Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you've said sounds very logical to me. We don't want to accept what China is doing and go with it, but we certainly don't want to go with embargoes or anything drastic. Things change slowly, and we need to realize that. Demanding things won't work - particularly, I think, in China's case, where responding to a demand would surely hurt their sense of nationalism which they (I think?) value highly. I'm confu…

That was my point about the KKK protests too... I brought it up b/c many people claim to support free speech but oppose some kinds of free speech, and in essence that's the sort of free speech we have in the US (the KKK has been banned from having its parades, etc.). In China, there is no pretense of free speech, yet some things are allowed and some disallowed. I agree with you that demands won't work, and will proba…

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Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#38
post #21
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's especially interesting given that the U.S. model for IP is pragmatic rather than ideologic, i.e. temporary government-granted monopolies are a necessary evil we accept in order to further technological and creative progress for the benefit of all citizens. Considering the opinion many here have that innovation in the U.S. is stifled rather than encouraged under the modern politicized IP model, it might be enligh…

temporary Practically speaking, copyrights are perpetual in the US. If something is copyrighted for life plus 90 years, I'm not going to see anything made during my lifetime enter the public domain naturally.

This is true, but it was not always the case. That copyrights last so long now is the result of change due to political pressure.

Even as recently as 1998 copyright was only authors life plus 50 years, and less before that.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#39
post #9

I am not surprised by this action. Bottomline, China is a big bully. You want example? China claims all of South China Sea http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8047206.stm China that sent 250,000 troop over to teach Vietnam a lesson during 1979 war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War . On and on...we need to be tough on China. American CEO needs to think long term before moving jobs to China.

It's remarkably ineffective bullying. Oh no, the web site was down for several minutes, and some unnecessary expenses were incurred! We're doomed! What these guys need to learn to do is say "Fuck you, you're an idiot, and here is a coherent rebuttal:" and submit it to the news aggregators that gave the original article its popularity. There are enough contrarians that it should be easy to get a lot of people to read…

The thing is, the Chinese are fiercely nationalistic - it would not surprise me at all if many of these attacks are being done without government sanction.

I would tread carefully on news like this - it's easy to read too much into it, and it's too easy to manipulate, kind of like blaming all communists because one of them set fire to a building.

Re: "What Is the Chinese Economic Model?" author reports server attacked

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's remarkably ineffective bullying. Oh no, the web site was down for several minutes, and some unnecessary expenses were incurred! We're doomed! What these guys need to learn to do is say "Fuck you, you're an idiot, and here is a coherent rebuttal:" and submit it to the news aggregators that gave the original article its popularity. There are enough contrarians that it should be easy to get a lot of people to read…

The thing is, the Chinese are fiercely nationalistic - it would not surprise me at all if many of these attacks are being done without government sanction. I would tread carefully on news like this - it's easy to read too much into it, and it's too easy to manipulate, kind of like blaming all communists because one of them set fire to a building.

Are you kidding me? Take a look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_gSasJPs1Y. Chinese Plain-Clothes Officials Block CNN Cameras With Umbrellas In Tienanmen Square. How low can the Chinese government goes? They operated like a gang, no less.
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