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Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

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Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#691

Post by zarzavat »

austinthetaco wrote: post #267
zarzavat wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like reading Anthropic's obituary.

This is weird and reactionary. Lots of organizations are continuing to refuse to use chinese models due to security and IP concerns. Anthropic/american models aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

> Lots of organizations are continuing to refuse to use chinese models due to security and IP concerns

These customers exist (e.g. US military) but there's not enough of them to justify a trillion dollar valuation.

Anthropic's valuation is predicated on growth. If they start going backwards and losing customers to open models, it hurts their ability to gather investment and with it the ability to train new models, leading to a death spiral.

The best they can hope for is that the US gives them state aid to compete with China, however their relationship with the current administration is not great.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#692

Post by brookst »

bigyabai wrote: post #669
boredatoms wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worry that some model provider will go and hire artists to draw pictures of pelicans on bicycles to make training data

If it forces LLMs to get better at SVG design, then it's not a terrible incentive.

You can have any SVG you can imagine, as long as it’s a pelican riding a bicycle.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#693

Post by pizzaiolo »

Analemma_ wrote: post #626
x313 wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there was some grand strategy for all Chinese labs, surely it'd have leaked by now. I think its more likely that: - Companies can still make money from commodities - Chinese labs only have 5-10% the valuation of OpenAI/Anthropic, so massive monopoly profits aren't necessary. Profit expectations for tech companies in China are really low in general, complete opposite of the US. - Open weighting is a great way to ge…

- AI investment is basically the only thing keeping the American economy treading water at the moment, and kicking the chair out from under that industry benefits China tremendously. I'm definitely not saying that's the only factor, but I think it's naive to assume it isn't at all a factor.

It's not in China's economic interest to cause or facilitate a recession in the US

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#694

Post by Iakeman »

x313 wrote: post #518
softwaredoug wrote: post #478

So Chinese labs are driving essentially towards commodotized intelligence. Even if its a few months behind the US. Is this a classic 'commoditize my compliment' situation? They want to sell the hardware and infrastructure behind AI and make the software part not the value driver / moat? I can see it. But also even two Chinese labs sinking 100s of millions USD into training isn't exactly commoditization. It's still a…

If there was some grand strategy for all Chinese labs, surely it'd have leaked by now. I think its more likely that: - Companies can still make money from commodities - Chinese labs only have 5-10% the valuation of OpenAI/Anthropic, so massive monopoly profits aren't necessary. Profit expectations for tech companies in China are really low in general, complete opposite of the US. - Open weighting is a great way to ge…

[dead]

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#695

Post by sivakon »

icedrift wrote: post #155
wolttam wrote: post #104

I'm a bit nervous this one isn't going to be open-weights. Any mention of "open" has been struck from the literature for this model (it was present an hour ago). We don't even know active params? At this pricing, I'll be surprised if it's open.

Reuters has been reporting that Chinese government is undergoing similar investigation to the US; blocking the export of domestic frontier models. They boil down to "anonymous sources" but it does seem inevitable as the tech gets stronger and stronger.

> The recent meetings (past month) with Alibaba, ByteDance, Z.ai, etc., were primarily about overseas acquisitions, foreign investment, and tech/talent outflow controls and not blocking foreigners from using Chinese AI models.

That is just misleading reporting. Very convenient for US frontier labs. This is actually what happened.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#696

Post by fumeux_fume »

sebmellen wrote: post #276

My testing prompt for these models is by no means objective or repeatable (like the pelican) but it's a nice test of curiosity: > Impress me with a 1 page html file Result: https://ydaurtg3fdwhq.kimi.page/ Came out looking pretty cool! By contrast, Fable produced a moderately more interesting "live observatory" of the solar system.

Runs great on mobile!

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#697

Post by Iakeman »

ethbr1 wrote: post #637
Analemma_ wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- AI investment is basically the only thing keeping the American economy treading water at the moment, and kicking the chair out from under that industry benefits China tremendously. I'm definitely not saying that's the only factor, but I think it's naive to assume it isn't at all a factor.

It's definitely a factor. In the same way that the US going to war with an important Chinese oil supplier: 85% of Iranian oil going to China and comprising ~14% of China's oil imports. There's always geopolitical reason behind the reason.

[dead]

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#698

Post by Abishek_Muthian »

simonw wrote: post #111

Pelican: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer#url=ht... - rendered via the OpenRouter API: https://openrouter.ai/moonshotai/kimi-k3 95 input, 16,658 output = 25 cents! https://www.llm-prices.com/#it=95&ot=16658&ic=3&oc=15 (13,241 of those were reasoning tokens.) I think that's the most expensive pelican I've rendered through a Chinese model so far.

For me none of the models have managed to accurately replicate any given .png/.jpg image in SVG. I guess that requires both vision encoders and coding layers to work perfectly.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#699

Post by woctordho »

cavemandaveman wrote: post #245
grommz wrote: post #228

Imagine you're a mid sized company and you can host this model locally. Suddenly there are zero reasons to pay a single red cent to the bloodsucking American AI cartel.

Can you host the model for a lower cost per token than you'd pay Anthropic or OpenAI for a similar level of intelligence? I doubt you're beating their efficiencies of scale.

Yes in a mid-sized company. I'm exactly doing this, and what I'm competing against is the OpenAI API priced 0.2 CNY = 1 USD in China.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#700

Post by podocarp »

vl wrote: post #581
softwaredoug wrote: post #478

So Chinese labs are driving essentially towards commodotized intelligence. Even if its a few months behind the US. Is this a classic 'commoditize my compliment' situation? They want to sell the hardware and infrastructure behind AI and make the software part not the value driver / moat? I can see it. But also even two Chinese labs sinking 100s of millions USD into training isn't exactly commoditization. It's still a…

This is strategy by Chinese government, so much of US economy is invested in AI. Releasing free or cheap versions of the models undermines US economic growth. It’s asymmetric strategy that makes sense if you are close second in AI race. If situation is reversed, US would do the same.

It's just too much 5D chess to be possible. Government spending billions into AI companies and pressuring them to open source at a hope at denting openAI and co? Why not just pour the cash into electric cars or steel where there's a guaranteed return? It's just absurd.
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