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End of Japanese community

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Re: End of Japanese community

#691

Post by [deleted] »

Timon3 wrote: post #499
henearkr wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the replying posts, there is mention of a discovered bug that could have resulted in most of the reported problems. It is normal to want to discuss in order to check if that was the bug, in which case fixing the bug would have solved the issues.

Given that the bug is a well-known and inherent flaw of the technology used, I don't understand what good this would do. It's not enough to say "whoops, we didn't think the machine would do the thing the machine is known to do". To fix the bug the architecture of the feature would have to be different, and that was completely obvious from the start.

[deleted]

Re: End of Japanese community

#692

Post by charlieyu1 »

hazn wrote: post #272
nozilla wrote: post #252

> Hi Marsf, > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. > My timezone is UTC+7, so it should be easier for us to set up time. Let me know how that sound! What a horribly condescending and patronising resp…

Why is it condescending and patronzing? I read it as a person trying to understand the situation.

I can feel the junior manager trying to repair but it is really someone higher-up should have properly apologised

Re: End of Japanese community

#693

Post by charlieyu1 »

gyomu wrote: post #18

As a multilingual/multicultural human it’s been pretty weird witnessing what AI translation has been doing to regional languages & cultures on the internet in the last few years. Sure we had machine translation before, but it was still a little off. Now the latest language models get us 99.9% there, so they are judged good enough to deploy at scale. What results is a weird twilight zone where everything is in your la…

Microsoft nuked the default behaviour of the input method of Traditional Chinese that had been working for the last 50 years with a silent Windows Update

Re: End of Japanese community

#694

Post by npinsker »

jameslk wrote: post #685
sameerds wrote: post #654

> Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. That has the same vibes as a customer support helpline that has no intention to actually help.

It may be viewed that way, but it’s also useful to empathize with someone and get more detail/nuance that can’t be conveyed simply over text. Especially when someone is not happy. I usually do the same thing when the medium is text and someone is not happy. Tone conveys a lot of useful information. Even better if you can see a person and their body language. I don’t think the cynical view of the staff person’s intent…

The request by itself is fine; it's not about that, but about the nuance within the word choice and what it conveys.

It appears the OP is an incredibly valuable community member that has been deeply affronted and hurt by the recent changes. Any attitude other than "I'll move heaven and earth to make this right for you" will likely feel insufficient. Even failing that, I'd at least expect an attitude of "I really, REALLY don't want this to ever happen again". I see neither.

The staff member comes off as robotic because there's zero conciliatory tone or admission of wrongdoing at all in the message. "I'm sorry you feel this way [about the workflow]" puts the onus on OP, and doesn't convey a hint of remorse -- even "I'm sorry our workflow has intruded on yours" would of course be better. "Would you be interested" should be "Would you be willing"; "to talk about this further" could be "so we can better understand what went wrong".

These nuances matter a lot when people are offended. If they're this incompetent at communication over text, I don't know that I'd bother with a video call.

Re: End of Japanese community

#695

Post by jahsome »

hitekker wrote: post #235
jahsome wrote: post #10

I'm not really able to understand the finer details but I think I picked up enough to get the broad strokes. Really though, all I needed to see was the phrase "jump on a quick call" to form an irrationally strong opinion. That phrase instantly warms my entire body with rage.

I used the "lets jump on a quick call" tactic once at work. Other party rejected it; they said they've made their position clear and didn't need to say anything more. I was impressed. They actually did make their position clear, and in public, whereas I was trying to smooth things over in private. Me trying to influence and cajole behind the scenes was insult to the risk they took by putting themselves out there. A g…

It's commendable you took the opportunity to reflect and learn from that experience. Great work, and thanks for having the integrity to share that experience with others.

Re: End of Japanese community

#696

Post by jameslk »

npinsker wrote: post #694
jameslk wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be viewed that way, but it’s also useful to empathize with someone and get more detail/nuance that can’t be conveyed simply over text. Especially when someone is not happy. I usually do the same thing when the medium is text and someone is not happy. Tone conveys a lot of useful information. Even better if you can see a person and their body language. I don’t think the cynical view of the staff person’s intent…

The request by itself is fine; it's not about that, but about the nuance within the word choice and what it conveys. It appears the OP is an incredibly valuable community member that has been deeply affronted and hurt by the recent changes. Any attitude other than "I'll move heaven and earth to make this right for you" will likely feel insufficient. Even failing that, I'd at least expect an attitude of "I really, REA…

Fair point. The non-apology is not helping I agree and would have been better left off altogether. I’m guessing this staff person is not very high level and just trying to help and connect the right people. That is, if you’re not very high up in an org, you may not feel you have the authority to speak on behalf of the org as a whole. I don’t have much context to know.

Mozilla could of certainly handled it better as an org, that I would agree with.

Re: End of Japanese community

#697

Post by 8cvor6j844qw_d6 »

Reading the comments and replies here makes me wonder if I might have unintentionally stepped on some toes at work, especially across different cultures and people with different "takes" on English.

I've also been on the receiving end (written communication) but given that we get along pretty well in-person, I chalked that up to our different writing "style".

Re: End of Japanese community

#698

Post by jahsome »

chao- wrote: post #26
jahsome wrote: post #10

I'm not really able to understand the finer details but I think I picked up enough to get the broad strokes. Really though, all I needed to see was the phrase "jump on a quick call" to form an irrationally strong opinion. That phrase instantly warms my entire body with rage.

I am fascinated by the nuanced opinions people have about word choice. What phrase would you use to ask someone to discuss a matter, but which you feel would be more appropriate for this kind of situation?

Jump on a quick call to discuss further? I want to fully make sure I understand your question.

Re: End of Japanese community

#699

Post by jahsome »

cyberrock wrote: post #501
chao- wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am fascinated by the nuanced opinions people have about word choice. What phrase would you use to ask someone to discuss a matter, but which you feel would be more appropriate for this kind of situation?

I suspect GP has had negative experiences with that specific phrase, "hop on a [quick] call", hence their "irrational rage". I also hate seeing that phrase at work: 1. "Hop" and "quick" suggests very simple matters, so to text-based people like me it doesn't really make sense why we wouldn't be able to resolve this matter asynchronously over text. 1b. Alternatively, the matter isn't actually trivial, so we should've…

It appears we're kindred spirits. I identify with every one of your points.

I'd add the following at an even higher priority than those you shared:

0. Folks whose first, and often only, reply to text comms is "quick call?" are often just unwilling/unable to organize their own thoughts and instead seek to offload the cognitive load by "talking through" the issue which just results in unproductive and circular discussions.

> Unrelated: I hate to appear anti-remote work, but I've noticed that remote workers tend to send more of these ad-hoc invitations, even more than getting tapped on the shoulder in the office. Are you all doing well out there?

I chortled at this! I have made the same observation and I have the same question.

Re: End of Japanese community

#700

Post by skywhopper »

jesterson wrote: post #247
adeptima wrote: post #7

10+ years in Japan. The message here is much deeper from my perspective. “Let’s jump on the call” is not the solution. The guy was stripped off of his face. I love Japan for being human. Small business bar or restaurant with 3 tables. Not everything should be streamlined for a quick call solution… the process was pushed on his head. Google nemawashi decision making process

> Not everything should be streamlined for a quick call solution If you have a better solution to correct an error or solve a problem than having a call/meeting and openly discuss situation and possible resolutions - I would love to know about that.

How is a private call about a community issue an “open” discussion?
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