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DeepSeek v4

api-docs.deepseek.com

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Re: DeepSeek v4

#681

Post by rapind »

sudo_cowsay wrote: post #292
jari_mustonen wrote: post #239

Open Source as it gets in this space, top notch developer documentation, and prices insanely low, while delivering frontier model capabilities. So basically, this is from hackers to hackers. Loving it! Also, note that there's zero CUDA dependency. It runs entirely on Huawei chips. In other words, Chinese ecosystem has delivered a complete AI stack. Like it or not, that's a big news. But what's there not to like when…

I sometimes wonder if there are any security risks with using Chinese LLMs. Is there?

All China (or anyone) has to do is deliver a close to equal product at a much cheaper price and make it scaleable / usable... which is what they're doing. It doesn't have to be malicious at all. Just a good product at a good price. The US is basically in a recession that's hiding behind insane AI investments.

Re: DeepSeek v4

#682

Post by hersko »

Ladioss wrote: post #376
sigmoid10 wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still not sure how I feel about China of all places to control the only alternative AI stack, but I guess it's better than leaving everything to the US alone. If China ever feels emboldened enough to go for Taiwan and the US descends into complete chaos, the rest of the world running on AI will be at the mercy of authoritarian regimes. At the very least you can be sure noone is in this for the good of the people anym…

I always find it an illuminating experience about the power of mass propaganda every time I see an American believe they somewhat have the moral high ground over China, despite starting a new war somewhere around the globe either for petrol or on behalf of Israel every six months.

Talks about "mass propaganda."

Thinks America is starting wars on behalf of Israel.

LMAO

Re: DeepSeek v4

#683

Post by cmrdporcupine »

culi wrote: post #41
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My submission here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47885014 done at the same time was to the weights. dang, probably the two should be merged and that be the link

there's no pinging. Someone's gotta email dang

beh. instead of merging they just marked mine as dupe, even tho it was submitted at same time and had (for a long time) about the same votes and a better target page

Re: DeepSeek v4

#684

Post by nz »

rfrey wrote: post #653
Ladioss wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always find it an illuminating experience about the power of mass propaganda every time I see an American believe they somewhat have the moral high ground over China, despite starting a new war somewhere around the globe either for petrol or on behalf of Israel every six months.

Many of us (worldwide, I'm not American) watched China massacre thousands of its own children at Tiananmen Square. The US is descending into totalitarianism, but it hasn't reached that level yet. And China may have changed in some ways but there have been no signals it would not repeat that event if it thought circumstances warranted.

And the US massacred four _million_ people in South East Asia, during the Vietnam war. That is 2/3rds of a holocaust. The Iraq War (second one), cost between half a million and a million lives (estimates vary, and it only includes violent deaths directly caused by American troops -- the war itself caused an increase in crime and murder and out-migration).

I could go on, but Tienanmen does not compare to most of the things the US has done outside of its own borders from 1946 to the present. And no, we (I am American) cannot justify a body count in the millions, just because our victims are communist/authoritarian/theocratic. Note also that we only number 5% of the world's population, and that if we compared body-counts as percentage of populations, instead of as absolute numbers, I doubt we even have enough people to settle that debt.

Even worse, if the world internalizes that it is fine to murder millions of foreigners, just because they are oddballs that their citizens cannot empathize with, the _we_ are going to have a big problem -- we appear much more odd to the world than the world does to us.

I am surprised that our shenanigans have been tolerated for nearly a century.

Re: DeepSeek v4

#686

Post by adrian_b »

kitd wrote: post #386
jari_mustonen wrote: post #239

Open Source as it gets in this space, top notch developer documentation, and prices insanely low, while delivering frontier model capabilities. So basically, this is from hackers to hackers. Loving it! Also, note that there's zero CUDA dependency. It runs entirely on Huawei chips. In other words, Chinese ecosystem has delivered a complete AI stack. Like it or not, that's a big news. But what's there not to like when…

I can't find any info on what exactly is open sourced. And in any case what does open source actually mean for an llm? It's not like you can look inside it to see what it's doing.

The model is not "open source", but it is an open weights model.

You can download it from the link given here at the top and you can run it on your own hardware, with whichever open-source harness you prefer, without having to worry about token cost or about subscription limits or about any future degradation in performance that you cannot control.

The recent history has demonstrated that such risks are very significant.

Being open weights is important for anyone who wants to use an LLM. Being open source is important only for a subset of those, who have the will, the knowledge and the means to train a model from its training data.

Having access to the training data used by a model would be very nice, but the reality is that for a normal LLM user it is very beneficial to use an open-weights model with an open-source harness, but it would be much harder to exploit the advantage of having access to all the information about how the LLM has been created.

Re: DeepSeek v4

#687

Post by jmyeet »

chvid wrote: post #322

The incredible arrogance and hybris of the American initiated tech war - it is just a beautiful thing to see it slowly fall apart. The US-China contest aside - it is in the application layer llms will show their value. There the field, with llm commoditization and no clear monopolies, is wide open. There was a point in time where it looked like llms would the domain of a single well guarded monopoly - that would have…

These have been my predictions since at least the first release of DeepSeek-R1 over a year ago:

1. There will be no moat where one company "owns" AI. China will see to that. It's simply too much in their national interest for that not to happen;

2. This is incredibly bad news for OpenAI who have raised so much money with so (comparabley( little revenue that the only way they can get a return on that is to "win" and be that company that "owns" AI; and

3. China's chipmaking will catch up with Taiwan within the next decade (with commercial EUV at scale within 5 years). I liken this to American hubris over the development of the atomic bomb where in 1945 many American leaders and military thought the USSR would either never get the atomic bomb or it would take 20+ years. It took 4. And they USSR's first hydrogen bomb was detonated a year after the US's.

Whereas the USSR did this with espionage. times have changed. Now all China has to do is throw a few million dollars at hiring the right people froM ASML and elsewhere. China has the track record of delivering on long term projects. Closing the lithography gap will be no different.

Re: DeepSeek v4

#688

Post by hersko »

swingboy wrote: post #517
tigrezno wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you talk like there isn't censorship in american AIs, like Israel topics.

Ask a Chinese model about Taiwan, get denied. Ask an American model about Israel, get citizenship revoked and deported.

That never happened

Re: DeepSeek v4

#689

Post by stickfigure »

Ladioss wrote: post #376
sigmoid10 wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still not sure how I feel about China of all places to control the only alternative AI stack, but I guess it's better than leaving everything to the US alone. If China ever feels emboldened enough to go for Taiwan and the US descends into complete chaos, the rest of the world running on AI will be at the mercy of authoritarian regimes. At the very least you can be sure noone is in this for the good of the people anym…

I always find it an illuminating experience about the power of mass propaganda every time I see an American believe they somewhat have the moral high ground over China, despite starting a new war somewhere around the globe either for petrol or on behalf of Israel every six months.

The difference is that - at least in the last 50 years - the US starts wars with brutal dictatorships. Whereas China is threatening war against a thriving democracy.

These are not equivalent.

Re: DeepSeek v4

#690

Post by bnm04 »

hodgehog11 wrote: post #304

There are quite a few comments here about benchmark and coding performance. I would like to offer some opinions regarding its capacity for mathematics problems in an active research setting. I have a collection of novel probability and statistics problems at the masters and PhD level with varying degrees of feasibility. My test suite involves running these problems through first (often with about 2-6 papers for conte…

Have you also tried the Pro versions of ChatGPT and Gemini (Deep Think)?
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