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Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

reuters.com

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Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#681

Post by MathMonkeyMan »

sg47 wrote: post #649
throwawaylinux wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm genuinely curious do people really want to get (presumably other people's sons) into war over this? I hope this doesn't sound flippant or taking light of Russia's actions because it's not intended to be. But what is the decision process behind supporting a choice to start sending other people to kill and die for your desired outcome here? And do you also believe wars should be initiated against China to liberate…

The last time a mad dictator wasn't nipped in the bud, the world lost millions in war.

I am sorry to say that there have been many a mad dictator since.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#682

Post by selimthegrim »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #639
w0de0 wrote: post #252

This development is a tactical prerequisite for besieging or attacking Kyiv. The exclusion zone covers the shortest route to the city from Belarus - the shortest route available to Russian forces. It’s also perhaps a strategic coup for Russia in two ways - but it could also be a boon to Ukraine. The coming days will elucidate which party most profits - probably Russia. Russia’s first strategic gain is simply one of p…

> This development is a tactical prerequisite for besieging or attacking Kyiv. The exclusion zone covers the shortest route to the city from Belarus - the shortest route available to Russian forces. Most probably this + the area being relatively empty makes it easier to pass through. As a slav (balkans), chernobyl to me personally just represents the corruption and totaly failure of communism, where everything has to…

>and the most notable action was shooting down a helicopter carrying bread

Piloted by a Slovene JNA officer IIRC

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#683

Post by ajsnigrutin »

selimthegrim wrote: post #682
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This development is a tactical prerequisite for besieging or attacking Kyiv. The exclusion zone covers the shortest route to the city from Belarus - the shortest route available to Russian forces. Most probably this + the area being relatively empty makes it easier to pass through. As a slav (balkans), chernobyl to me personally just represents the corruption and totaly failure of communism, where everything has to…

>and the most notable action was shooting down a helicopter carrying bread Piloted by a Slovene JNA officer IIRC

yep

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#684

Post by ajuc »

trashtester wrote: post #483
dudeinhawaii wrote: post #428

I'm genuinely curious at what point a bully threatening you with MAD can be stopped if you value the existence of your own civilization? Say Russian conquers all of Ukraine and moves troops to the Polish border and parks some tanks a bit inside. What then? Strongly worded essays? If Russia isn't raining hell on Poland, then NATO is forced to .. apply sanctions, make threats, but take no action since the escalation an…

I think MAD is only half the equation. Even if Putin didn't possess a single nuke, (EDIT:) Nato might very well have stood by watching today, as the conventional force deployed by Putin is pretty significant in itself. Similarly, had NATO deployed 500k soldiers fully armed with modern weaponry in Poland, Lithuania and Rumania as Putin was building up his forces, and added a warning that Ukraine would be granted insta…

> Otherwise, I fear the result of today's events will be a massive level of nuclear proliferation.

That's a given after 2014 (let's remember Ukraine gave up its nukes in 1994 in exchange for security and territorial integrity guarantees of USA, UK and Russia).

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#685

Post by ajuc »

jltsiren wrote: post #523
trashtester wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think MAD is only half the equation. Even if Putin didn't possess a single nuke, (EDIT:) Nato might very well have stood by watching today, as the conventional force deployed by Putin is pretty significant in itself. Similarly, had NATO deployed 500k soldiers fully armed with modern weaponry in Poland, Lithuania and Rumania as Putin was building up his forces, and added a warning that Ukraine would be granted insta…

European countries have not neglected anything. The current state of things is by design. Europe used to be full of empires waging destructive wars all over the world. After two world wars, people had had enough. The predecessors of the EU were created to tame the former empires. To make them mutually dependent and act like ordinary countries. It worked, and Western Europe has enjoyed a lifetime of peace, which is un…

Oh shut up, that's just excuse some countries tell themselves to save on the army. UK and France fought several wars as EU members and only disarmed after cold war ended.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#686

Post by throwawaylinux »

id02009 wrote: post #628
throwawaylinux wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm genuinely curious do people really want to get (presumably other people's sons) into war over this? I hope this doesn't sound flippant or taking light of Russia's actions because it's not intended to be. But what is the decision process behind supporting a choice to start sending other people to kill and die for your desired outcome here? And do you also believe wars should be initiated against China to liberate…

I live in Poland and struggle with this question myself. I don't want to die or kill so the suits on the top can then negotiate new post war order, which would almost certainly perpetuate this BS in the future. On the other hand: appeasement leads to more bullying, and might cause even bigger conflict on the future (we've seen this happen in WW2)

Thank you for the answer and perspective. Yes, it is a sad, impossible question really.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#687

Post by MathMonkeyMan »

queuebert wrote: post #670
nelblu wrote: post #545

This war makes me sick and very sad. It reminds me of the pale blue dot quote by Sagan : "Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot.". https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wupToqz1e2g

I feel like humanity has gotten nowhere in my lifetime. I grew up watching Star Trek and was very optimistic about the future, but that has been dashed.

We have yet to discover intelligent life as we know it, or something like warp drive (which probably doesn't exist). A lot of the futurist premise of Star Trek will not apply until humanity faces something like that.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#688

Post by tsimionescu »

trashtester wrote: post #530
Aeolun wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the combined might of Europe is actually quite significant. The problem is getting them to actually DO something.

In terms of number of personell, the "large" countries in the EU, such as Germany, France and Poland have about 200k each. Russia has 3 million, when including reserves. And while the Russian forces are actively trained as one force, European armies would have significant difficulties operating together and would lack shared leadership. Also, while some of the European forces are highly proficient, others are more at…

You're completely ignoring the economic angle. War is costly, especially for an aggressor, and Russia simply doesn't have the economy required to sustain a major offensive war, especially one far from his border.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#689

Post by Jon_Lowtek »

XorNot wrote: post #585
xuki wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if Russia nuke a Ukraine city tomorrow I don’t think the West would get involved directly. Do you really want to fight a mad man who already used a nuke once?

They absolutely would get involved. You can't just light off nukes in Europe, because it poisons the whole continent. Strategic or tactical nuclear weapons usage (or even threatened usage) to annex border states requires a response or else you're going to be skipping straight to "full scale launch" when the aggressor asks for something you're not willing to give up. Fortunately the bet in that regards is that Putin's…

The russian people have no say in this, their country is ruled by the siloviki

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#690

Post by slaw »

shmerl wrote: post #631
throwawaylinux wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm genuinely curious do people really want to get (presumably other people's sons) into war over this? I hope this doesn't sound flippant or taking light of Russia's actions because it's not intended to be. But what is the decision process behind supporting a choice to start sending other people to kill and die for your desired outcome here? And do you also believe wars should be initiated against China to liberate…

You can use World War II as a study case for that. Nazis could have been stopped sooner, instead some tried to appease them until it was too late.

When do you think Germans should be stopped and who was going to stop them?
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