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Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

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Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#631

I'm genuinely curious at what point a bully threatening you with MAD can be stopped if you value the existence of your own civilization? Say Russian conquers all of Ukraine and moves troops to the Polish border and parks some tanks a bit inside. What then? Strongly worded essays? If Russia isn't raining hell on Poland, then NATO is forced to .. apply sanctions, make threats, but take no action since the escalation an…

I'm genuinely curious do people really want to get (presumably other people's sons) into war over this? I hope this doesn't sound flippant or taking light of Russia's actions because it's not intended to be. But what is the decision process behind supporting a choice to start sending other people to kill and die for your desired outcome here? And do you also believe wars should be initiated against China to liberate…

You can use World War II as a study case for that. Nazis could have been stopped sooner, instead some tried to appease them until it was too late.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#632
For those of you who can't wrap your heads around why Putin is invading Ukraine, I invite you to recall the invasions of Afghanistan in 2001 and Iraq in 2003 by the US and its allies.

While artfully justified to Western audiences at the time, they have both been subjected to intense criticism and questions of legitimacy since.

In the case of Iraq, if I am not mistaken, the war was an operation to disarm a country of WMDs that it apparently didn't possess.

In the case of Afghanistan, the invasion occurred because, again if I am not mistaken, the US was not extended an invitation to come into their country and retaliate against al-Quaeda, a military organisation responsible for the 9/11 terrorist attacks against the US. So the US was forced to invite themselves.

While I'm not going to get into the criticisms of the US and its allies for these occurrences right now, I would just like to point out that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is not all that different — in fact, it's actually more fruitful for Putin than the West's military ventures.

Putin stands to lose very little in this act. Anyone currently dealing with Russia already is unlikely to be deterred by this episode for long, regardless of the cost to human lives. How many stopped dealing with the US when citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq were being killed?

Sanctions are also likely to do very little. As I understand it, Russia was already under some sanctions, what will a few more do? SWIFT access revocation has to be agreed by all members, and even if that happened, things like that are why cryptocurrencies didn't evaporate 12 years ago, but have instead (with a degree of volatility) flourished.

In terms of credibility in his own country, I suspect Putin's entire career as his country's president has been characterised by his outspoken belief that the USSR lives on and that he wants Russia to assert itself and its strength.

It is likely this narrative, combined with his tight state control, relationships with oligarchs, and exports of oil and gas to countries who don't really fancy digging it up for themselves, that has kept him in power and popular with sizeable proportion of the Russian people. Many of whom probably do yearn for a return to the halcyon days.

So invading a post-Soviet state with a good deal of embedded Russian culture probably only strengthens him in the view of his supporters, and his critics he can just arrest as debauched youths and traitors, I suppose.

My point is that he will likely face little effective opposition to a literal land-grab on the home front.

So what about aid coming to Ukraine from the West? Well, I've read a lot of people saying Putin is insane and irrational and could just hit the nuke button any time and his Western peers wouldn't have the stomach to do the same — for someone who wanted to face as little opposition as possible, that's pretty much the perfect impression to give off.

And all it takes is a psychotic-sounding speech or two that Western media outlets — who were in dire need of a new attention-gripping story to maximise ad revenue now that the pandemic's not interesting — can whip into a firestorm with nuclear weapon mentions, Hitler comparisons, military strength assessments...

Provided that you don't mind blowing up Ukrainian civilians — and I'm guessing Putin probably doesn't lose much sleep over it, much like Bush and Blair probably didn't think too much about Basra's residents — then this move gets you:

+ Ukraine, its infrastructure, its commodities, etc.

+ media exposure to flex your muscles to domestic and foreign audiences, consolidating your home political position, expanding your influence abroad, and cementing your legacy for years to come

+ a war with the odds firmly in your favour to train your military and test your weapons

+ a chance to antagonise already weak relations between the West and China

+ a chance to improve your own relations with China who'd love to have a relatively-ignored precedent upon which to rationalise a brief holiday to Taiwan

+ confirmation that no one in the West will fight you when you decide you look at the next non-NATO land-grab

- Boris Johnson will use the opportunity to pretend he's Winston Churchill... call for SWIFT revocation that he knows will never happen... in order to pull himself out of his own hot mess

- Joe Biden will babble on TV about something that is supposed to disguise the fact that he will never engage Russia in open war

- the EU will have a meeting

- NATO will have a meeting

- a few bored professionals will insult you on the internet

So, I suspect Putin probably did think the situation over, figured that if Ukraine joined NATO it would become impractical to attack, kind of a "now or never" moment for a leader who doesn't want to lose face entering what may be his last decade of his premiership before he decides to retire somewhere and write a best-selling guide to dealing with an alliance of 30 countries.

Don't get me wrong, what Putin is doing is of course horrific and my heart goes out to the Ukrainian people. I honestly didn't think he would do it, but I see why he has invaded — because he has dared to do it, people will believe he'd do anything now, and he can do whatever he wants. Maybe he'll try a small ex-Soviet NATO country next. I wonder if anyone will pipe up then.

I just felt the need to express how I am seeing these events unfold, because I believe that there is very little understanding of this situation in the West (as a British person, perhaps I am also guilty of this, but if so, I hope to be corrected so I may learn) and I think that's probably half the reason why no one is actually doing anything other than stopping trade with a nation that is probably quite capable of weathering a bit of economic turbulence.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#633
post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has a bit more than a couple of nukes, as does the US. I believe I've seen the numbers indicate that the present arsenals that are currently in service are too small to erase humanity, but they are definitely big enough to cause hundreds of millions to a few billions of deaths. If we consider the situation of just 1-2 warheads are used in a conflict, I think it really hard to gauge the effect on public percept…

One "solution" is to intercept the nuclear missiles from space. (Reagan's Strategic Defense Initiative). It was restarted a couple years ago with commercial involvement. Possibly a Starlink derivative. Putin must be aware. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlink#Military_capabilities

I find this quote they interesting

> called the project "fundamentally destabilizing".[192]

As we see today, the situation is not that terribly stable.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#634

I'm genuinely curious at what point a bully threatening you with MAD can be stopped if you value the existence of your own civilization? Say Russian conquers all of Ukraine and moves troops to the Polish border and parks some tanks a bit inside. What then? Strongly worded essays? If Russia isn't raining hell on Poland, then NATO is forced to .. apply sanctions, make threats, but take no action since the escalation an…

This is what I call acting on emotion rather than by logic. War has its costs and Russia isn't that fool to go after NATO. And, it was pretty clear from the beginning, right? Invading Ukraine is already hard for them due to resistance and sanctions, do you think Russia would go beyond the line? If they cross the line ww3 is bound to happen, so the probability Russia would be destroying itself is very very low.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#635
post #599
post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One "solution" is to intercept the nuclear missiles from space. (Reagan's Strategic Defense Initiative). It was restarted a couple years ago with commercial involvement. Possibly a Starlink derivative. Putin must be aware. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlink#Military_capabilities

Ballistic missile defense capabilities will remain very limited for at least the next few years. But Russia has also hedged against this risk by developing the Poseidon strategic nuclear torpedo. We have no effective defense. http://www.hisutton.com/Belgorod-Class-Submarine.html

Same with hypersonic missiles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-47M2_Kinzhal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avangard_(hypersonic_glide_veh...

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#637
post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm genuinely curious do people really want to get (presumably other people's sons) into war over this? I hope this doesn't sound flippant or taking light of Russia's actions because it's not intended to be. But what is the decision process behind supporting a choice to start sending other people to kill and die for your desired outcome here? And do you also believe wars should be initiated against China to liberate…

You can use World War II as a study case for that. Nazis could have been stopped sooner, instead some tried to appease them until it was too late.

Or you could use Dessert Shield as a case study which has turned into pointless and incredibly long-lived war fronts.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#638
post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One "solution" is to intercept the nuclear missiles from space. (Reagan's Strategic Defense Initiative). It was restarted a couple years ago with commercial involvement. Possibly a Starlink derivative. Putin must be aware. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlink#Military_capabilities

I find this quote they interesting > called the project "fundamentally destabilizing".[192] As we see today, the situation is not that terribly stable.

[deleted]

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#639
post #252

This development is a tactical prerequisite for besieging or attacking Kyiv. The exclusion zone covers the shortest route to the city from Belarus - the shortest route available to Russian forces. It’s also perhaps a strategic coup for Russia in two ways - but it could also be a boon to Ukraine. The coming days will elucidate which party most profits - probably Russia. Russia’s first strategic gain is simply one of p…

> This development is a tactical prerequisite for besieging or attacking Kyiv. The exclusion zone covers the shortest route to the city from Belarus - the shortest route available to Russian forces.

Most probably this + the area being relatively empty makes it easier to pass through.

As a slav (balkans), chernobyl to me personally just represents the corruption and totaly failure of communism, where everything has to look great, but what's underneath the facade, doesn't matter. If things fail, you can usually just lie about that... like they did with chernobyl too.

> I hope desperately that Ukraine gains greater European unity, and Russia gets further opprobrium among those Europeans who yet still take an understanding view of Putin’s new imperialism.

Again, as someone from the balkans (even though this part is a small separate country now and a member of NATO and EU), who's seen the 1999 nato bombings in yugoslavia firsthand, and who remembers a couple of saudis flying some planes, and usa attacking afghanistan, and the "weapons of mass destruction" iraq "had", and syria and lybia, etc., I really cannot comprehend all the outrage at putin, when all the outraged countries literally have soldiers occupying some other foreign countries right this moment.

Again, as a balkaner, war is bad (even if we were the lucky ones, because the last one lasted only 10 days here, and the most notable action was shooting down a helicopter carrying bread), but if your country is currently doing the same as putin is, your leaders should really shut the fuck up.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#640
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. But if a NATO member is attacked, then member states are obligated to come to the member's aid. It's essentially tantamount to saying, if you are at war with a NATO member, you are at war with the whole bloc, which includes USA, UK, France (somewhat in/out member over the decades), Germany, Turkey, and so on. It's a formidable group that acts as a deterrent to any would-be aggressor. The US is not obligat…

> if a NATO member is attacked, then member states are obligated to come to the member's aid Are they really? > So while the use of armed force is one way to respond to aggression, the NATO has several options, for example: > Nothing. They might decide that the best way to "restore and maintain security" is to just let the attacker have that country. https://politics.stackexchange.com/a/32686

Well, in this case, Biden vowed to defend ‘Every Inch’ of NATO Territory so I don't think we have to worry about that.
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