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YouTube deletes rapper's 'Let's Go Brandon' song claiming medical misinformation

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Re: YouTube deletes rapper's 'Let's Go Brandon' song claiming medical misinformation

#671
post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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Well established scientific concensus. If you're referring to anything related to Covid there's no well-established scientific consensus it literally just happened around year and a half ago it's impossible to have scientific consensus. Even the most respected scientists are saying they don't know about a lot of things related to covid. also well-established scientific consensus is not an ideal goal post . Galileo wa…

> also well-established scientific consensus is not an ideal goal post .

It indeed is. As a layperson who knows nothing about a field, not even a closely related field your best bet is to accept the scientific consensus. And by best bet I mean that that that is the choice that will give you the highest expected value of success.

People keep pointing at the cases from the past (sometimes from the very far past, like with Galileo) trying to disprove this strategy. There are at least two fatal flaws with this logic: 1. science has evolved a lot since then. And it doesn't just mean that we know more about those specific subjects (be it astronomy or neuroscience) but more importantly, the scientific method has evolved too. I.e. when we think we know something today, is very different from what it was a 100 or 500 years ago. 2. Of course, scientists can be wrong. Even en masse (i.e. the scientific consensus). (If it wasn't so, we may not need research any more after all because we'd know everything.) But going completely wrong is pretty rare and what is exactly your other option? Listening to lunatics? Because every lunatic will say "yeah, but the scientists are wrong all the time, so..." and go on with their 100% unfounded claims. No, it's not that they do research because they don't accept the consensus. That would be totally OK. They just make claims that they support with this very vague critique. "Lobotomy won a Nobel prize, which we know don't work, so who is to tell me that I'm wrong with my claims that I have nothing to support."

> Nothing is certain in life when human beings are involved no matter how comforting that thought is. There is only a narrative of certainty.

Nobody said it was. This is a big fat strawman. But just because (almost) nothing is 100% certain, it doesn't mean that we don't have more probable and less probable answers.

Re: YouTube deletes rapper's 'Let's Go Brandon' song claiming medical misinformation

#672
post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was not an answer to his question, and I am really curious for an answer to it because I think it's a valid and reasonable point. Also, as to whether believing scientific general consensus should count as "faith" or not, I invite you to read Issac Asimov's short essay "The Relativity of Wrong".

OP's question appears to invert the burden of proof in assuming that a consensus, even of experts, ought to be believed unless there are compelling reasons not to accept it. Where is the evidence that a consensus is a good metric for the truth of a matter? Has there been any work done to establish such a correspondence? Asimov seems to be arguing that there are degrees of wrongness, and one can become less wrong by a…

Nope. It's not that it's ought to be believed. The thing, in general, is that you always make a choice with your beliefs and decisions. When you make a decision (vaccinate or not to vaccinate, wear a mask, don't wear a mask) then you choose between two options and in the end who you believe.

A lot of people like to formulate this for themselves as being open and not accepting some kind of "dogma". Which sounds good, you stay open, what do you have to lose? (BTW, accepting the scientific consensus doesn't mean that you can't change your mind when new information comes in, but that's a tangent.)

But the thing is that when you have to make a decision then you have to accept some claims as being true (for at least the duration of making the decision). And that's when you have to ask yourself (as a layperson): who is more likely to be right? Which model is going to be more close to the reality? Science, the majority of scientists or some random dude? (Including maybe those few seemingly legit scientists who "speak up" in social media stating that all other scientists have gone completely wrong, including virologists and epidemiologists. But that one bloke is right.) And can that solo dude be right in theory? Yes, of course. Is he likely to be right? Well, looking back at the history of science it's rare, it doesn't last too long (until others realize and change their opinion) and it's getting more rare (as the scientific method evolves).

So yeah, no burden of proof on anyone, just a meaningful strategy for those outside of the field (any given field). Those doing research should always prove they are right. But, to get back to the original topic, that's not done in social media. That's done in scientific publications through peer reviewed papers. And, of course, the scientific consensus itself is supported by those so talking about shifting the burden of proof makes no sense at all. The proof is there for the consensus. That's the point.

Re: YouTube deletes rapper's 'Let's Go Brandon' song claiming medical misinformation

#673

For those who think this isn’t political, check out what they posted on the POTUS Twitter the day before https://twitter.com/potus/status/1451544259992203266 The goal of this is to reclaim “let’s go Brandon” and it’s obvious. EDIT: for those who don’t know what “Let’s go Brandon” means, a child comment linked to a 40 second video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ8asiDn2_A&feature=youtu.be For those who don’t watch or…

> This video contains content from NASCAR Media Group, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.

Re: YouTube deletes rapper's 'Let's Go Brandon' song claiming medical misinformation

#674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> also well-established scientific consensus is not an ideal goal post Genuinely asking, how should I evaluate truth in a subject matter that I myself don't have a doctorate in if the standard of "what is general consensus among the people with doctorates in the subject" isn't reasonable?

A lot of parts of science and math are very different from the 60's while a lot of remains the same! How do you make sense of all of this and wrangle objective truth from the chaos? That's an epistomological question people have been asking since the dawn of mankind. IS there even objective truth that our limited monkey/human mind can grasp? I don't know the answer!...but I know censoring a multitude of opinions and…

It's not about censoring the opinions in general. Again, it's about censoring fake news on social media. Nobody wants to censor research (I know it's more complicated, because of what gets funded and what not) or publishing in peer reviewed papers. Heck, as a result of the pandemic, peer reviews got even quicker and a lot of research gets publicity when they get on pre-print servers (i.e. pre-review)! That doesn't sound like claiming monopoly on the truth to me.

You could argue that social media is an important outlet for new scientific ideas, results and discoveries but then you'd have to prove that not censoring there and letting the fakes run wild adds more value than the harm caused by the fakes. And the we know that the latter effect exists. I'd say that even if there is added value here (TBH, I don't see it at all), it's overwhelmed by the harm. Any scientifically valuable contribution that is only spread through the social media will be lost in the noise of nonsense.

Re: YouTube deletes rapper's 'Let's Go Brandon' song claiming medical misinformation

#675
post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a pandemic. We're in a Public Health Crisis in which 700 000 people have died. We have medicine to give people which is safe, and almost guarantees they won't die, and material chunk of the population won't believe it, due to information like this. I have 0 problem whatsoever with large, public information clearing houses suppressing anything that is counter factual during the emergency. If they were taking down…

The assumption that material like this is the reason people don't believe the government is just that: an assumption. What evidence do you have that this is what drives people to not believe the things the public health establishment wants them to believe? You don't have any evidence because it's not possible to prove this. I should also point out that you have misinformation in your statement. You are stating that c…

It's false to suggest that we can't develop an understanding of how people arrive at their conclusions.

If you work in the field of Marketing, PR or Communications for just a few days, it becomes pretty clear how people come to believe what they do.

What is 'impossible' - is for a material portion of the population to arrive at the specific conclusion that 'XYZ drug is beneficial for ABC disease' without having popular sources for that information: they have to hear it or read it somewhere. The greater the voice, the greater the credibility of the source in the mind of the recipient, the greater the likelihood that information becomes sticky. While there are other factors, the primary vehicle of the message is paramount. It's also measurable.

In fact it is your statement that miscommunicates the ongoing nature of the pandemic:

While COVID may linger for some time, there is no evidence as of yet that it will remain endemic - we don't know that.

Also - pandemic itself will definitely pass - as all pandemics in history.

COVID may or may not linger around in one form or another, but we will, at some point, back off from public health emergency status.

Re: YouTube deletes rapper's 'Let's Go Brandon' song claiming medical misinformation

#676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the full video of that town hall meeting available anywhere?

https://youtu.be/R8R2545fHCo Oddly, it’s pretty well hidden in search, while other, older town halls came right up. I had to select a number of specific options in YouTube’s search just to find it.

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Re: YouTube deletes rapper's 'Let's Go Brandon' song claiming medical misinformation

#677

The song contains the line "The pandemic ain't real/They just planned it". I believe that the solution to incorrect or dangerous speech is only more speech and oppose YouTube's takedown. However, it's absurd to say this is "political" and thus not medical misinformation. It's clearly a political statement in support of a political movement that maliciously lies about public health.

The song says both that the pandemic isn't real, and that the vaccines failed to stop the spread. So the song contradicts itself on the realness of the pandemic.

Re: YouTube deletes rapper's 'Let's Go Brandon' song claiming medical misinformation

#678
post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From where I stand, given the evidence, the people who say something like "vaccination has no impact on R" are not far from people claiming the earth is flat. I mean maybe the earth is flat. Even the guy who responded to me saying I was wrong then changes his mind on that Judging from the statistics of high vaccination rate countries like Israel vs Sweden,[1] there are a few important questions to respond with such…

> But, pushing a leaky vaccine across a large population is a license to get mutations and cause new variants in a large population. Fact check: vaccines do not cause variants. Citation: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-021-00544-9 Sense check: most variants of concern emerged in countries prior to mass vaccination. Short version: why would vaccine-induced immunity provide materially different selection pressur…

Fact check your fact check:

> "Not all vaccines prevent infection. Some, known as leaky vaccines, prolong host survival or reduce disease symptoms without preventing viral replication and transmission. Although leaky vaccines provide anti-disease benefits to vaccinated individuals, new research by CIDD’s Andrew Read, David Kennedy and colleagues at the Avian Oncogenic Virus Group in the United Kingdom, and The University of New England in Australia, has demonstrated that leaky vaccines can make the situation for unvaccinated individuals worse. Leaky vaccines work by enhancing host immunity to a particular pathogen, without necessarily blocking or slowing viral replication. The result is that infected but vaccinated individuals have extended survival, allowing highly virulent pathogen that would normally reach an evolutionary dead-end in a dead host, can transmit. The evolutionary consequences of high virulence are thus reduced and these pathogens can be selectively favored as a result of leaky vaccination." [1]

> "Could some vaccines drive the evolution of more virulent pathogens? Conventional wisdom is that natural selection will remove highly lethal pathogens if host death greatly reduces transmission. Vaccines that keep hosts alive but still allow transmission could thus allow very virulent strains to circulate in a population. Here we show experimentally that immunization of chickens against Marek's disease virus enhances the fitness of more virulent strains, making it possible for hyperpathogenic strains to transmit. Immunity elicited by direct vaccination or by maternal vaccination prolongs host survival but does not prevent infection, viral replication or transmission, thus extending the infectious periods of strains otherwise too lethal to persist. Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts." [2]

> "Over the past fifty years, Marek’s disease—an illness of fowl—has become fouler. Marek’s is caused by a highly contagious virus, related to those that cause herpes in humans. It spreads through the dust of contaminated chicken coops, and caused both paralysis and cancer. In the 1970s, new vaccines brought the disease the under control. But Marek’s didn’t go gently into that good night. Within ten years, it started evolving into more virulent strains, which now trigger more severe cancers and afflict chickens at earlier ages. Andrew Read from Pennsylvania State University thinks that the vaccines were responsible. The Marek’s vaccine is “imperfect” or “leaky.” That is, it protects chickens from developing disease, but doesn’t stop them from becoming infected or from spreading the virus. Inadvertently, this made it easier for the most virulent strains to survive. Such strains would normally kill their hosts so quickly that they’d die out. But in an immunised flock, they can persist because their lethal nature has been neutered. That’s not a problem for vaccinated individuals. But unvaccinated birds are now in serious trouble. This problem, where vaccination fosters the evolution of more virulent disease, does not apply to most human vaccines. Those against mumps, measles, rubella, and smallpox are “perfect:” They protect against disease and stop people from transmitting the respective viruses. “You don’t get onward evolution,” says Read. “These vaccines are very successful, highly effective, and very safe. They have been a tremendous success story and will continue to be so.”" [3]

> "Vaccination elicits immune responses capable of potently neutralizing SARS-CoV-2. However, ongoing sur- veillance has revealed the emergence of variants harboring mutations in spike, the main target of neutralizing antibodies. To understand the impact of these variants, we evaluated the neutralization potency of 99 indi- viduals that received one or two doses of either BNT162b2 or mRNA-1273 vaccines against pseudoviruses representing 10 globally circulating strains of SARS-CoV-2. Five of the 10 pseudoviruses, harboring receptor- binding domain mutations, including K417N/T, E484K, and N501Y, were highly resistant to neutralization. Cross-neutralization of B.1.351 variants was comparable to SARS-CoV and bat-derived WIV1-CoV, suggest- ing that a relatively small number of mutations can mediate potent escape from vaccine responses. While the clinical impact of neutralization resistance remains uncertain, these results highlight the potential for variants to escape from neutralizing humoral immunity and emphasize the need to develop broadly protective inter- ventions against the evolving pandemic." [4]

> "HIV patient had COVID for over 7 months, infection mutated over 30 times....It is noted that patients who have HIV are not more susceptible to contracting a coronavirus infection than those without, nor does it worsen the medical implications of the infection. Additionally, the fact that the disease stays present within the body of immunosuppressed patients for longer periods of time compared to healthier individuals could mean that HIV patients could be an incessant source of transmission and mutations of the coronavirus - almost like a factory of variants." [5]

If you have high viral transmission against a less effective variant, of course you will have natural selection of a virus for greater transmissibility within that specific environment. If the environment is now a conventional spike antibody human environment, this will promote changes to the spike, and, changes to the overall virus.

Furthermore, when you have a leaky vaccine distributed to a large population where viral spread is still occuring, you promote genetic transfer between viruses that are mutually infecting patients, as well

This is science 101, unless you disbelieve in adaptation?

[1] http://epidemics.psu.edu/articles/view/leaky-vaccines-promot...

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4516275/

[3] https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/leaky-vac...

[4] https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0092-8674%2821%2900...

[5] https://www.jpost.com/health-science/hiv-patient-had-covid-f...

Re: YouTube deletes rapper's 'Let's Go Brandon' song claiming medical misinformation

#679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole central claim that started this was the allegations that Joe Biden pressured Ukraine to fire the prosecutor investigating the company that was paying Hunter for his "services". If it's true that foreign interests were bribing the vice president of the USA though payments to his son in order to change American policy then that is indeed a staggering level of corruption. For comparison the president of South…

Yes, that was claimed. It's been thoroughly disputed. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/21/fac... Even if there was truth to it (I do think a genteel corruption was in play but not to this extent), these arguments are being made in bad faith. There's no concern for actual corruption as they don't seem to care when it happens in any other context -- it's just "gotcha" politics. US foreign policy in…

It's been "thoroughly disputed" by an journalist who is not even out of college yet? (and someone who posts pro Biden tweets on her Twitter account no less)

Re: YouTube deletes rapper's 'Let's Go Brandon' song claiming medical misinformation

#680
post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well established scientific concensus. If you're referring to anything related to Covid there's no well-established scientific consensus it literally just happened around year and a half ago it's impossible to have scientific consensus. Even the most respected scientists are saying they don't know about a lot of things related to covid. also well-established scientific consensus is not an ideal goal post . Galileo wa…

> also well-established scientific consensus is not an ideal goal post . It indeed is. As a layperson who knows nothing about a field, not even a closely related field your best bet is to accept the scientific consensus. And by best bet I mean that that that is the choice that will give you the highest expected value of success. People keep pointing at the cases from the past (sometimes from the very far past, like w…

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