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George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

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Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#671

Post by mindslight »

vorpalhex wrote: post #657
mindslight wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police generally have contracts where they have weaseled out of criminal, civil, and even administrative sanctions, allowing them to break the law with impunity. If you don't see this as extreme corruption, then you don't actually believe in the rule of law. > Per the latest Monmouth poll, about 60% favor the police (compared to ~11% for congress) and most people see the police as their protectors Unfortunately this…

> Police generally have contracts where they have weaseled out of criminal, civil, and even administrative sanctions That's false. Qualified immunity is a result of a supreme court decision and not part of police contracts. The only thing in most contracts is that police officers who are fired get a chance at mediation for firing disputes. Police officers do get legal protections, the same way you and I get them. You…

Qualified Immunity just sets the default and is mostly a red herring (not that it shouldn't be addressed). A city could easily declare that an officer acted outside their explicit government duties when committing a crime. Furthermore, this could be straightforwardly clarified in their contract.

In general you're repeating talking points about fragments of what I said, while ignoring my substantive points. For instance, explaining QI doesn't address how the police have also been able to weasel out of criminal and administrative penalties - eg why haven't Breonna Taylor's killers been charged and put in jail, or at the very least quickly fired? There are obviously mundane procedural answers for these, but added up it's a very lopsided contract allowing the police to play Rambo with impunity.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#672

Post by wl »

hajile wrote: post #564
tartoran wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Handcuffing a lifeless freshly shot body is more than enough. I’ve seen it over and over. Why is that a policy? Second, why shoot to kill and not to incapacitate? Shoot to kill is a policy. Why is that a policy? The police rule by fear. I’ve never broken the law and yet Im really affraid of cops in the US. I know I should not have a reason to but can’t help but be intimidated by their tactics, their orders, their dem…

It's obvious that you've never even shot a gun before. Pistols aren't particularly accurate in a shooting range even if you take lots of time to aim. With a moving target, adrenaline, and all the other factors in an actual situation, you're going to be lucky if all your shots even make contact with the target. Where do you aim if you want to "shoot to incapacitate"? No such place exists on the body. Even using small,…

I assume you're referring to the death of Rayshard Brooks with your DUI comment. In that specific case, the police officer only shot once Brooks shot at him with the stolen taser. At that point, I suspect the argument he'd make is that he believed (rightly or wrongly) that his life was in imminent danger and he was ending that threat. I doubt he shot to apprehend the fleeing suspect, which would go against his training and is in fact illegal under such circumstances.

There's a larger issue, though. All laws ultimately are enforced by people with guns who will do violence up to and including death if people don't comply. Some laws are less likely than others to result in death (e.g. drug laws vs. securities fraud), but "is this law worth killing for?" is a question we all should ask when considering what the law should be.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#673

Post by koheripbal »

hef19898 wrote: post #492
koheripbal wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they allowed a mob to circumvent the legislative/democratic process of monument removal and it's an example of a "good" action? Mobs are not the law.

Risk management. Allowing htem to tear it down vs. intervening with force to safe a piece of metal on a piece of rock. The latter can be put back up. The former carrers quite a risk for everyone involved. Sunds like a reasonable call to me.

If this were a one-time event, I suppose that might be true.

...but the unfortunate reality is that allowing mobs to destroy property become a feedback loop because they then realize that mobs can destroy anything they like with impunity.

That's no way to run a civilization.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#674

Post by unethical_ban »

lazyjones wrote: post #517
kthejoker2 wrote: post #412

If there ever was a case of "don't comment unless you've RTFA" this it: people extrapolating their viewpoint on a list of 700 things from watching 1, 2, 3 ... At a minimum, watch 100 videos. I did last night, only took about an hour, it's easy to find some to nitpick, some which are ambiguous ... and plenty that are totally horrifying. If you can watch 100 videos in a row from Greg Doucette's list and say, "the milit…

This is a clear attempt to manipulate opinion, I don't know why HN leaves it up. You could watch 100 videos of disgusting malpractices in restaurant kitchens and begin to think you should never eat in a restaurant again. If after watching carefully select and cut videos on a Twitter propaganda account you believe the police has a systemic issue, you're falling for the same trap. It's the same way media manipulate you…

I'd place a $1000 bet that you are either a Republican, or you have a close friend or family member in law enforcement.

The police are uniquely powerful against normal citizens. Not only are these videos clearly representative of a large number of abuses, but their colleagues rarely try to stop those abuses. Few of them will be held accountable. The police are almost always above the law, if not outright immune.

In "cop vs. citizen" when it's just words, cops will always win. Even when there is video, it is difficult to get justice. A cop unjustly hitting someone and a citizen unjustly hitting someone are two different crimes, in my opinion, and the cop committed the far worse of the two.

The fact that everyone watching George Floyd get murdered in slow motion was too scared to tackle that cop is proof enough of the power to kill with impunity that cops have.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#675

Post by ashtonkem »

pc86 wrote: post #669
ashtonkem wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that their continued behavior is putting the pensions at risk, since those depend on continuous taxpayer contributions. It’s not wise to tear gas the people who are going to pay for your retirement.

Based on this comment it's not clear how much experience you have with public sector unions generally or LEO contract negotiations specifically, or how public sector pensions typically work. Barring conviction of a crime (and sometimes even in spite of conviction, depending on the offense), your pension is generally set based on your hire date, and is a percentage of your salary based on the average over some period…

The individual officer is guaranteed access to the pension, but there is no guarantee that the public ever bothered to fully fund said pension.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#676

Post by luckylion »

jpttsn wrote: post #645
luckylion wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, my belief is that 1) nations outsource violence to the superpower 2) the superpower’s military prowess comes at the cost of a warlike culture at home. But that only works for super powers? Why is there no trend visible for countries like Switzerland who are traditionally neutral and never fight wars with neighboring countries like France who or Germany who have a larger active military, do engage in NATO wars…

My overarching point here is that it’s pointless to debate Switzerland v Germany as if they exist in some sort of vacuum without interaction. Without Germany, there is no Switzerland. Without Switzerland, there is not Germany. A theory where every nation is a data point can’t get you anywhere. All the nations interact meaning we should reason about the system as a whole. I say something about a nation, you expect me…

> I say something about a nation, you expect me to back it up with other nations. But there are very few data points, and they are interconnected, and the problem has a huge number of dimensions.

Sure, but there's little/nothing that suggests the effect you speculate about, it seems to have no parallel in history although empires have existed before, there are counter examples ... so it seems not too likely that that is the cause. Of course, no two days are the same, no two countries are the same and no two countries are even the same with regard to their not-same-ness on two different days, but countries and cultures move slow enough, and countries and humans are similar enough that we'd see such obvious and large patterns, I believe.

On the other hand, we have other explanations that have supporting evidence, apply to multiple situations etc, so they seem more likely. When you present a new theory, claim that it cannot be falsified because no two countries are exactly the same (and therefore no relationships between countries can be the same), I think you should offer some evidence to support that theory instead of asking others to just accept it.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#677

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

lisper wrote: post #659
AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's reasonable, but how do we punish (or otherwise deter) offenses? The most obvious answer seems to be to fine the offenders, but really, how do you fine a homeless person?

You might start by providing them with a home.

This is indeed the right thing to do.

But I can easily imagine that out of 8 million people living in New York City, a certain number does not want to live at home and actually prefer staying outside.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#678

Post by koheripbal »

standardUser wrote: post #613
SamuelAdams wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why any footage of an incident used in court must include the entire interaction. Police body cam footage can be rejected as evidence if it does not start with the officer stepping out of his vehicle. This is why so many iPhone recordings from bystanders gets thrown out in trial. Are there instances where police abuse their power? Yes. Absolutely. But it doesn't help anyone when people are cherry picking inst…

"Are there instances where police abuse their power? Yes. Absolutely." That's really all we need to know to demand radical changes to police culture, if not the entire concept of ubiquitous armed police forces.

That isn't a logical conclusion to draw.

Are there instances where doctors negligently kill their patients? Absolutely.

That does not mean we need to "radically" change doctor culture, if not the entire concept of doctors performing surgeries with sharp objects.

The RATE is abuse is more important than the mere existence of abuse.

These emotional comments have lost touch with logical thinking. The media is driving people crazy.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#679

Post by hanselot »

Its amazing how many policemen are actively contributing to this conversation. Good to know we have all these active police academy members with first-hand knowledge of the situation. And, no, that's not saying these videos are fake, hyperbolic or twisted to support a specific narrative (they are), but it is to say that hearing only one side of a story is pointless. Yes police are brutal in the US. Wanna know where they are worse? In South Africa a criminal can be arrested over, and over, and over. Because our prisons are full, somebody that is guilty of over $5800 usd of property damage, will walk free by Monday, if they get arrested on Friday. They won't have a hearing or a trial. They will spend the weeked in a cell, and be on their way.

Want to know what that feels like? Knowing that everywhere you go, at all times you are at risk of hijacking (in which they will get into your vehicle and drive you, often at gunpoint) to atm after atm, to empty your bank accounts, in case you have limits imposed on your accounts. How about the horrifying rape and sexual abuse statistics we have? How is it possible that your country can be so blind? Everyone fighting over skin colour while the wool is shifted over your eyes and your rights are stripped away.

Going through this thread I have come to realise that a very large number of highly talented individuals are mentally handicapped, by something worse than religion. I hope you all figure out how to escape from this, its going to destroy your country.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#680

Post by fulldecent2 »

Here is a project set up to review each of these individual reported incidents.

https://www.reddit.com/r/GeorgeFloydUnmasked/

There will need to be a lot of discussion // more than be traced using Twitter // to solve any one of these incidents.

That's why we set up a Reddit for threaded discussion. This is Don't Fuck with Cats style.

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