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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#661

Post by wpietri »

hazov wrote: post #638
wpietri wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point. Men aren't normally afraid of sexual assault, because most sexual assault is perpetrated by men on women. If you want to the feeling of fear that a potential victim feels, you have to imagine a situation where you feel at risk of sexual assault. If that story doesn't make you feel sufficiently uncomfortable to have empathy for women surrounded by a bunch of men when the context suddenly turn…

This is rape paranoia, if you feel that's fine then good for you, as I see it it's no better than racial profiling.

Sorry, which part is rape paranoia?

As a guy, I'm not worried about rape. It very rarely happens to adult men.

But that's the problem I'm trying to draw attention to here: a guy's intuition of what is an inoffensive sexual comment will be very different than a woman's, because they face very different risks of sexual harassment and sexual assault.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#662

Post by wpietri »

oh_sigh wrote: post #278
wpietri wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't trying to sketch an equivalent situation. He said he couldn't understand why the jokes were a problem. I tried to help him understand. In particular, to viscerally understand the experience of being unsafe, and how a joke can contribute to that.

Please learn to read more carefully. He said he didn't understand why these "jokes" are supposed to be offensive to women. He did not say why any jokes are supposed to be offensive to women.

I understood that, and that is indeed the question I tried to answer.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#664

Post by rdtsc »

mr-hank wrote: post #642
rdtsc wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come to think of it, Twisted also makes me uncomfortable. Quick, call Jesse Noller and security and escort Glyph out of the building.

To be fair to PSF Jesse Noller was not involved, and we were not escorted out of the building. Their accounting of the issue can be found here: http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop...

It was a response to the grandparent who was making a point about how some things should not be tolerated and how the work place can become sexualized.

(from gp)

> The lesser issue still exists, though, of creating a 'sexual environment' where mentions of sex may make people who believe others may wish to engage them in sexual relations may feel threatened.

I was just saying that Twisted makes me feel this way ;-)

On a serious note:

There is another, more subtle issue at hand and that is that in the past PyCon has dealt with someone who was sent out over something inappropriate (and rightly so). After a that a strongly worded statement was issued about how organizers will be very sensitive to such issues in the future. I think that didn't escape Adria's attention. This year, at a moment's notice she saw an opportunity to go from 0 to 100 in terms of popularity. Given her position she will end up profiting handsomely from this.

She also made penis jokes previously on Twitter, and called you guys ass clowns in a world wide forum (twitter) -- your kids will end up seeing that picture some day. I think Jesse Noller (or whoever on the PSF side) should apologize to you. You were also PyCon attendees and sponsors and you had that happen to you. I am sorry. Twitter should remove your photo. Adria shouldn't be welcomed to PyCon anymore.

I think you should know that many in the community feel it was terribly unfair what happened. I hope you have a job offer lined up soon and maybe this will open an opportunity for you.

The best of luck.

EDIT: Spelling + clarification

Re: The PyCon Incident

#665

Post by healsdata »

ceol wrote: post #573
jimminy wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She did post a picture of them, wearing their companies t-shirt, resulting in one of the individuals to be released from his job.

I'm still not seeing the part where their reputations were publicly dragged through the mud. To do that, you would have to identify them, and the only people who know them are the ones who paid for their trip in order to represent them: their employers. It's a shame he got fired, but I don't necessarily blame his company. I wouldn't want someone telling dick jokes and making me look bad doing it on my dime.

How many Alex's work at PlayHaven? Because both of those things are clearly visible in the photo she posted. According to LinkedIn, it's a company of 11-50 people and it took me one minute to find their profiles.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#666

Post by devilshaircut »

wpietri wrote: post #620
jules wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the funniest comment I've read in a while, but it's also sad. You managed to insult women, gay men and the hacker news reader at the same time. I don't know which women you're basing this on, but the ones I know don't fear for their life when they hear a penis joke, even though it's distasteful. And I don't know which gay bars you frequent, but I've never heard anything close to that. Even if it were the case…

I wasn't drawing an equivalence between the situation I described and Adira's situation. Joeboy said he couldn't understand why sexual comments could be a problem. One reason guys can't imagine that is that they don't see sexualized situations as risky situations. Many women do. Not always, certainly. But I know a number of women who have been raped, and I don't think I know a woman who hasn't been discomfited by unw…

But that is exactly the point you were making: that it would somehow be reasonable to "feel threatened" when 2 gay guys are having a sexual conversation within hearing range of you. You in fact agree with everyone else that this is not a threatening situation. Given that, what does this have to do with the incident at Pycon? Your argument is heteronormative at best because it also assumes that only straight men could every be offended by gay sexual conversation.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#667

Post by wpietri »

Joeboy wrote: post #258
wpietri wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine this situation: You are walking down the street. It starts to rain, so you duck into the nearest business, a bar. You order a beer, and realize that you have stepped into a gay bar. The table behind you starts making jokes about how virgin anuses are the best. They are pretty big guys, leather daddies. You worry they're talking about you, about your anus. You worry. That feeling of discomfort? The way your he…

I am indeed getting a feeling of discomfort, because I feel some responsibility to challenge what I perceive to be a homophobic comment. I suppose that is similar to what Adria felt at Pycon. Imagine you ended up in a gay bar, and two men were making crappy double-entendres about github repos. If that's scary, you're the one with the problem.

No homophobia is involved.

Males are the perpetrators of most of the sexual assault in the world, so in trying to create a scenario that would make you identify with the victim, I used a male perp. You could also try imagining yourself in prison, or in the hands of dirty cops. But those are rare experiences, whereas everybody has gotten caught in the rain, so I started with that.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#669

Post by designNERD »

b0sk wrote: post #67

Here's my blame attribution 10% - The guys. Yea, a bit moronic to make a private adult joke that can be heard by others in a professional setting. But even in a real job setting, they'd just get a reprimand from HR and that'll straighten most of them out. 40% - Adria. It's getting evident that she went out of the way to take offense and sees herself as Joan of Arc (superiority complex?). She tries to make herself the…

most sensible response I have read on this entire issue

Re: The PyCon Incident

#670

Post by protomyth »

throwawayhooray wrote: post #131
tiredofcareer wrote: post #32

I think all of us would agree that technology has a sexism problem. However , the environment in 2013 and the way, as a whole, it seems that we have gone about countering it is roughly equivalent to napalming six city blocks to get rid of bedbugs in an apartment. (Edit: On reflection, a better analogy would be napalming New York City to eradicate bedbugs. I am aware of the scope of the sexism problem.) This little sa…

"I think all of us would agree that technology has a sexism problem." I'm working in an office without any African American males or Hispanic American males. Does technology have a racist problem?

Well, since technology projects keep naming themselves after Native American tribes and register the websites, IT might be a tad insensitive.
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