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Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

appfairness.org

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Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#651
post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like you conceding that it would be a bad situation. One can think that the current situation has problems and also see that the remedy will make things much worse. These are not in contradiction.

Not having choices is a bad situation. I would be surprised if you thought otherwise. Imagine not being able to ditch the App Store the way publishers have done so in the Mac App Store: https://bohemiancoding.tumblr.com/post/134322691555/leaving-... https://panic.com/blog/coda-2-5-and-the-mac-app-store/ https://sixcolors.com/post/2014/10/bbedit-at-max-q/ Imagine an App Store update breaking all of your apps: https://…

Developers won’t have more choices. They’ll be forced to support all the stores that have a significant set of customers.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please don't give me root access to my iPhone, I do not care about it, I have no need for it, and I do not want it Then don't turn on root mode? Nobody will force you to do anything, if I am given the option of easilu turning on root mode, and you can simply choose to not turn that on.

I’m all for people wanting rootmode, I just don’t want more freedom and choice on my device, I see no need for it and I like the way Apple can streamline everything by forcing everyone to interact with their device on their terms. And obviously I realize that this doesn’t go for everyone, and that’s completely okay . I just don’t think Apple should be forced to make their phones into full-on computers just because so…

in a vacuum, there's really nothing wrong with apple's choices regarding iOS. as far as I can tell, most iOS users really do appreciate how the whole system is locked down, or at least don't understand why they should care.

what sucks is that in the big picture, there's really no viable option for someone who cares about security/privacy and is willing to pay for a premium device, but wants full access to their phone occasionally. the security update situation on android is still a mess except for the pixel line (which usually has subpar hardware) and a handful of other flagship devices. even if you're willing to pony up, you're still buying into an ecosystem that's designed to exfiltrate data from your device. it's frustrating because the iphone is so close to having everything I want from a device. if I could just have the ability to temporarily elevate privileges, even from some obnoxiously buried menu deep in the settings (or bootloader), I would buy one in a heartbeat.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#653
post #208

All the arguments about what company is most evil entirely miss the point. You don't make a decision on a specific issue based on what company you like more, you base it on who is right on the specific issue. From an ethical perspective that's what having a codified rule of laws is all about. Everyone get's the same rules no matter how much you like them. You don't arbitrarily punish people for doing things you don't…

The question from a principle standpoint is - can a company create an area where trust / safety / security are prioritized. T Developers no doubt disagree with this, they have created a web that is filled with crap. Let's be 100% clear about that. Spam calls via voip, spam into email, ddos floods of every sort imaginable, impossible to unsubscribe, cramming and slamming on subscription renewals and the list goes on.…

To keep the continuity of discussion, I assume that this comment was posted here because my top level comment was in part a reply to your (temp667's) comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24579860

I appreciate the attempt to connect this to the anti-trust suit, but I don't see this as a good justification for why your original critique is relevant for a few reasons:

- Many of the practices in your original critique are allowed on (or not prevented by) Apple's app store. The argument you are making here only makes sense as pertaining to anti-trust to the extent that you are critiquing practices that Apple is preventing.

- It doesn't particularly matter whether the people trying to overturn Apple's practice are the bad actors, or third parties are, since the lawsuit affects all parties (third party or not) equally. So while you could make a consumer benefit argument based on bad actors (indeed, Apple has tried to in the lawsuit), it makes little to no sense to focus on the parties suing (and simultaneously falls into the trap of just arguing that people you don't like don't deserve justice).

On a separate note - I also find the argument for Apple's bundling of services here unconvincing. I have seen no argument for why Apple's curation service needs to be bundled with the phone - which is the prerequisite of the anti trust suit. Consider that apple could perfectly well sell the hardware and OS, and separately sell (or even offer for free) a software package that locks out third party app stores and third party payment providers. Doing so would practically destroy any argument that they are using their monopoly on IPhone hardware and IOs to acquire a monopoly on app distribution and payment services. To the extent that people find the lock in useful, I expect they would install that software package.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#654
post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They want to be part of a small exclusive group of store owners who get to share in the benefits of Apple’s investments. Exclusive? Why can't I write an app store?

For the same reason you can’t build a phone. You’ll be competing with multi-billion dollar corporations who have exclusive content and nobody will bother with your store.

> You’ll be competing with multi-billion dollar corporations who have exclusive content and nobody will bother with your store.

What does me building a store have anything to do with its adoption? I build lots of low/no-adoption software for fun or for small/personal use. This line of thinking, that if you can't be a top-level player in a competitive market, you can't build anything is foolish. You shouldn't confuse the building and marketing concepts, especially not to support disallowing the former.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#655
post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is scaremongering. Android has alternative app stores and most apps don't bother releasing to them. iOS would not fragment overnight into dozens of app stores if it was to become open. Likely the majority of apps would still target the App Store, with a handful of major competing stores. These competitors would be incentivized to attract developers, otherwise they would end up with the same lack of apps that kil…

The handful of competitors would be multi-billion dollar corporations, e.g. Epic, Facebook, Google, Amazon, Microsoft. The incentive for developers is as always, customers. The stores would be incentivized to acquire customers. Developers would be forced to support any store that had more than a few percent of customers. Acquiring customers can be done without giving good terms to most developers. All you need is a s…

> Developers would be forced to support any store that had more than a few percent of customers.

Look at the Amazon Appstore for Android and you'll see an anemic limited app marketplace that while subpar, doesn't seem to be doing anything particularly nefarious to consumers nor developers alike. And it's precisely anemic and limited because it contains far fewer apps than the Play Store. We have the entire Android ecosystem to use as a case study to see why competing iOS app stores wouldn't be a threat to either to the App Store's prominence nor to the livelihoods of developers.

> Acquiring customers can be done without giving good terms to most developers. All you need is a small number of exclusives.

Which does not obviate the ability of the vast majority of non-FANMG affiliated developers to stay on the App Store as they please, or only join the specific app stores that they wish to live on out of desire and not necessity.

> There is no reason these stores would need the long tail of apps as long as they had a few very popular ones, and that would reduce exposure for the long tail that did remain in the Apple store.

You seem to be operating under the misunderstanding that the existence of alternative app stores creates lock-in.

> Your point about standardization of store rules isn’t obvious - what industry do you think this compares with?

I'm saying any industry that involves multiple players will see the standardization of norms and operating conventions, much like how UX patterns across different apps standardizes over time. (Take the adoption of the "hamburger button" to mean menu back in the '10s). If there are multiple entrants into the app store space, standard business practices will arise as a new and exciting place for entrepreneurs is created.

> There is no reason to think that this would do anything to democratize the industry, indeed it would be likely to have the opposite effect, of increasing barriers to entry for smaller developers.

And there's no reason to think that the existing situation is any more democratic than the hypothetical you're spinning.

> It is the obvious extrapolation of the behaviors of current players.

And is it being borne out on Android? There's no Facebook nor Microsoft Play store there. There doesn't even seem to be interest in that direction. Yes, comparing the iOS and Android ecosystems (especially in the service of delineating a hypothetical open iOS ecosystem) is imprecise, but it's useful for the sake of this discussion.

> An extreme position would be the emergency of a utopia of developer centric stores all bending over themselves to make things better for the little guy.

Which isn't what I'm arguing for, either. I think there's the potential for that. Certainly more than in the status quo.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#656

Can we just link directly to the advocacy group's page ( https://appfairness.org/ )? I'm not certain the article is adding anything. ---- I'm generally supportive of at least some of Epic's arguments towards Apple, and I do believe that Apple (and multiple other FAANG companies) are engaged in anti-competitive behavior that's currently hurting the market. But a lot of the arguments I'm reading on the App Fairness sit…

What I learned from past experiences is to never use analogies. They are almost always a source of distraction, people start to argue about the analogy itself instead of the topic at hand, which is almost always completely counter productive. Also it often only makes sense in the mind of the author...

Agreed. Analogies are like trying to draw attention to traffic signage by decorating them with scantily-clad people.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#657

Apple built their controlled ecosystem and set their rules. And now others are insisting that Apple should not have that control (even when they themselves are doing the same thing).

"Standard Oil built their ecosystem and set their rules." "AT&T built their ecosystem and set their rules."

From Wikipedia's entry on Standard Oil [0]:

> Standard Oil dominated the oil products market initially through horizontal integration in the refining sector, then, in later years vertical integration; the company was an innovator in the development of the business trust.

Horizontal then vertical integration is exactly what Epic is doing, by first getting onto a bunch of platforms and app stores, then creating their own app stores and auxiliary purchasable items. Apple has always been vertically integrating, when have they horizontally integrated? AFAIK they've always been a platform into which other companies, like Microsoft with their original Office suite, have horizontally integrated.

> The Standard Oil trust streamlined production and logistics, lowered costs, and undercut competitors.

The group of companies coming together to form this advocacy group is a trust. Apple is not.

From Wikipedia's entry on US v AT&T [1]:

> [AT&T was] using monopoly profits from its Western Electric subsidiary to subsidize the costs of its network

Companies selling apps on the app store are not subsidiaries of Apple, they are customers of Apple. A company reinvesting profits into itself is not anticompetitive. Maybe you had a different idea of why AT&T relates to Apple, but I don't see it.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._AT%26T

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple does not have a monopoly on phones. Not even smartphones.

Yea and Google doesn't do the same sh*t as Apple? Looking at it this way, it is impossible to avoid abusive and increasingly vague and restrictive store policies.. You think there is a chance in hell Apple and Google are not going to continue the trend of restricting devs and taking bigger profit shares for the "privilege" of being in the store? Its only going to get worse. Good for them for standing up.

If you wish more competition to enter the market I'd argue for Apple to increase its prices (the higher margins the more competition).

You're arguing they lower their prices, and thats just going to cement their position.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#659
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because of the market lock-in and power of both companies, you can't use any of the Apple stack and Android without the Play Store is a commercial death sentence.

Why is it a death sentence not to have the play store? I don’t see why Epic couldn’t create their own gaming focussed device, and buy a bunch of exclusive titles including their own content. If their store had better terms than Play, and accepted APKs, why wouldn’t other developers want to sell through it? If the argument is that developers are desperate for better terms, it must follow that they would want to suppor…

>I don’t see why Epic couldn’t create their own gaming focussed device, and buy a bunch of exclusive titles including their own content.

Nobody would buy a phone that only plays (a few) games and has very little useful apps. You're not arguing in good faith.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#660
post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm strongly reminded of the quote "Freedom of speech doesn't protect speech you like; it protects speech you don't like... Modern addendum is "You can have Freedom Of Speech but no guarantee for Freedom After speech." Edit: Just to clarify, It is not my opinion. It is Social media warriors warning people "Free speech is not free of consequences"

"Free speech is not free of consequences" This is absolutely true though? I fail to see your point. You are free to say what you want, and other people are free to criticize you for it. If you don't support the right to criticize, you don't support free speech.

It is more of "free to criticize' vs 'free to destroy livelihood' thing. Some would say both are same or second is just an implementation detail of first.
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