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Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

nytimes.com

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Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#651

Post by KirinDave »

wtbob wrote: post #597
adrienne wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the correct way to do this is to use the individual's pronouns. Please note that the AP and the NYT have basically adopted the GLAAD style guide on this issue: http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender The NYT correctly stated in the parent article, "Ms. Manning was still known as Bradley Manning when she deployed with her unit to Iraq in late 2009." See how that works? She was always a she, even though she was…

> No, the correct way to do this is to use the individual's pronouns. No, the correct way to do this is to use the correct pronouns, at least in the third person. One might refer to someone who believes he is Napoleon to his face as 'Your Majesty,' in order not to cause mental distress, but one is under no compunction to refer to him in the third person as 'His Majesty.' Likewise, no-one is under any compunction to r…

Equivocation of all non-conforming gender identities as a mental malady to be treated is such a Victorian era christian philosophy.

Highly religious, unscientific arguments are best taken to Gab where they will not be subject to scrutiny. Can I help you make an account?

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#652

Post by flukus »

tropo wrote: post #583
baddox wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to this article, the prosecution failed to provide evidence that anyone was killed due to the leaks. I don't know if anyone was harmed , but it really doesn't seem like it.

Muammar Gaddafi, obviously. There are/were several other leaders nearby who also suffered. Along with them, the resulting violent conflict killed plenty more.

Why not just blame the butterfly for flapping it's wings?

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#653

Post by golergka »

acalderaro wrote: post #188
rthomas6 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have mixed feelings on this. Manning did commit a crime. They were entrusted with classified information and they released it on purpose. For all of the corruption and wrongdoing the release of those cables uncovered, didn't it also do things like give away the positions of some undercover agents? And harm US diplomatic relations with other countries? Look at it from the POV of the government: How could they not pu…

Yea, from the POV of the government having the public realize all the illegal, unethical and irresponsible things you've been doing with their tax dollars would be absolutely terrible. Someone may end up getting jail time - or even worse - lose their reelection! /s Anyone who is able to condemn Manning would also condemn the soldiers of Hitler's army who chose to disobey orders to kill Jews because it would have been…

Is there a single thing in those files to make Nazi comparison justifiable?

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#654

Post by KirinDave »

grzm wrote: post #410
adrienne wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an "opinion" about which people can reasonably be on different pages in 2017. It's transphobic and disgusting. And of course i'm getting downvoted for speaking out about it, because this is, after all, Hacker News.

Please note I never claimed it was. I believe as you do that language is important. That includes choosing language I think will accomplish my goals, which is to encourage people to reflect and think about the issue. I don't think using language like "fucking disgusting" and "transphobic" are likely to convince the people you hope to reach to do anything other than get defensive and dig in. Do you? And Hacker News wi…

Gosh! If only Adrienne had tapped into an infinite well of patience and politeness maybe some of the folks here who very literally equate trans people with dangerous mental instability will come around.

Civility is content, language itself is arbitrary. Pretend I were to say, "Sir, the fact that you're a cishet man makes you incapable of rational thought on this matter. I hope that the new administration gives you the electroshock therapy you need to normalize to a rational being and not a dangerous predator."

That is a civil set of words, but a profoundly uncivil and dangerous tone. And that's being repeated over and over in this forum and NOT being rated down.

Further, it's absolutely hypocritical that we cheerfully upvote the most uncivil of emails by Linus Torvalds and banal screeds about "Getting Shit Done" but the instant someone uses energized language when talking about racism or sexism, then suddenly a completely different set of standards apply because this is politics and that's different.

Civility is entirely removed from the playing field when someone's human rights and dignity are in question. That is a final line before we convert someone into something akin to an animal. And that is a very real line that Manning has faced throughout this entire ordeal. In the same sense that were you to try and stab someone, they should not apologize if they hurt you while defending themselves.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#655

Post by geff82 »

This is good news. Manning committed a crime (giving away info from the government which she was thought to protect), but it does not justify destroying a life. She served well beyond enough time behind bars, too many years for my taste, so my soul says is great she is released. If now the prison time for more ordinary people could be reduced to more European-human lenghts.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#656

Post by KirinDave »

grzm wrote: post #443
adrienne wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think of me as a particularly disapproving Greek chorus.

As I pointed out in my initial comment, I personally value your comments when you're civil. I think they add to the overall discussion. I don't think anyone on Hacker News needs a "particularly disapproving Greek chorus" of any particular opinion. Less charitable people might argue it's indistinguishable from trolling. It's distracting and leads to bad faith and flamewar discussions, and is explicitly against communi…

From what I've seen, you're the sort of person who "values" the input of marginalized opinion so long as you're firmly in control of the conversation and are allowed to shout them down at any time.

Examine who and what you are defending here. You've desperate clung to this driftwood of a "rational" debate, which is of course a complete charade. What "constructive" and "positive" debate can be had here?

I have prepared a nice play which sums up the transphobic part of this thread. Forgive me the formatting, HN is a bit difficult to coerce. Please do consider auditioning for the part modeled after your actions.

C: "Hello. I am attempting to live my life as a woman. To live any other way is unbearable."

HNA: "You are a man and a bad one at that!"

HNB: "Your particular brand of mental illness must be painful."

HNC: "The objective reality is that you have a penis therefore are a man."

HND: "Can you even have a period? Everyone knows all women can have periods. HA!"

HNE: "These snowflakes, we should round them all up."

Someone Sane: "This is vile. This is totally wrong. You are fucking monsters."

You: "Now now, watch your language."

Someone Sane: "Really? My language."

You: "One cannot hope to have a civil discourse with one so emotional and foulmouthed. How can you hope to debate your betters with such language? Tut tut."

Someone Sane: "I wasn't planning on debating them. Their points are beneath contempt, unscientific, and dehumanizing."

You: sighs smugly "That, my little snowflake, is the problem. They've already won by logic, all you bring to the table is curse words. Why can't you be more fair?" sips box wine "Now run along and play."

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#657

Post by golergka »

HerraBRE wrote: post #155
cm2187 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whistle blowing requires the knowledge of wrong doing, and exposing these wrong doings. As far as I am aware that guy leaked the data in bulk without looking at it, and without any knowledge of the US diplomacy, and the leaks didn't expose any major wrongdoing. Only some gory videos, that don't really teach us anything (everyone knows bombs make "collateral damages", the US army even maintains statistics on them). An…

The "collateral murder" video, which was based on Manning's leaks, is really quite chilling and definitely shows wrong doings that were then covered up by the government. There was more, but this was the most visual/memorable. I suggest you turn your scepticism to 11 and go watch it, see if you still feel the same way. https://collateralmurder.wikileaks.org/ (warning: if watching civilians, journalists and children b…

And right after watching this video, I understood that Manning really deserved the sentence.

This is war. The video clearly shows that soldiers made a decision made on an honest, although tragic, mistake. They have to make this kind of decisions all the time - and I fail to see how anyone can say, from information that was available to them, that the decision was in any way wrong.

The fact that this story had to be covered up says more about idiocy of public and the media that would've (and did) make a baseless witchhunt. I finally 'got it' after watching "Eye in the sky" (spoilers!): if hollywood screenwriters and moviegoers really think that killing one innocent girl to prevent two suicide bombings is some kind of a complicated moral dilemma that's worth more than three seconds of deliberating, then may be this kind of public really shouldn't be trusted with classified information.

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#658

Post by Buge »

DonHopkins wrote: post #374
hendersoon wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no record of any individual being physically harmed, but the leaked diplomatic cables were highly embarrassing, hurt the interests of the US, and were completely unjustified. They weren't exposing malfeasance or war crimes. They should not have been released. Manning did it wrong, Snowden did it right.

The fact that the US murdered innocent civilians was highly embarrassing and hurt the interests of the US, not the fact that Manning leaked that information itself. Punish the murderers, not the messengers. The only people were actually harmed were the innocent children and journalists on the receiving end of US machine guns.

Did the diplomatic cables contain information that the US murdered innocent civilians?

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#659

Post by abiox »

LargeCompanies wrote: post #595
scott_karana wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coward? He threw away a cush job, a home and relationship in Hawaii, and the ability to ever set foot in America again, for something that he did for others' benefit , and didn't stand to make any gains from. Sounds pretty brave to me, even if you disagree with his actions.

Huh who had a better quality of life? The guy living decently and freely in Russia with tons of admiration and fans or the guy no one knows that's locked up in solitary confinement??? I think the answer is an easy one and thus fleeing was a cowards move compared to the life Manning has led.

what benefit would arise from being "not a coward" in this context?

Re: Obama Commutes Bulk of Chelsea Manning’s Sentence

#660

Post by abiox »

notpc wrote: post #604
kidcoach wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society already is that "flipped around" scenario, there are thousands of places on the web where you can yell and call people idiots/fascists/libtards/whatever. Have you ever seen it be productive ? Change people's minds on important issues ? No. To effect change you have to have respect and compassion for the person who's mind you are trying to change.

I didn't call anyone an idiot, a fascist, a libtard, or a 'whatever'. Good try at a straw man though.

it doesn't seem like they said you did.
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