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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#631

Post by mistercow »

marshray wrote: post #591
mistercow wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That analogy is completely ridiculous. Restaurants are not venues that require customers to agree to a code of conduct barring inappropriate jokes. They're also not the kind of places where people are sitting quietly and near enough each other to hear jokes told quietly.

Python conventions are places where people can overhear my conversation, take pictures of me, and publicize them as personal accusations with impunity? I've been to plenty of conferences and I haven't heard of this happening, except to politicians when they forget there are microphones and news reporters around. This is why our society does, in fact, have a separate set of privacy rules for people classified as "publ…

Let's keep the threads of argument separate here. On the one hand, we have the question of whether or not that joke was acceptable in that situation, and in the ancestor comment, danilocampos was arguing that it was not. I tend to agree.

Then there is the separate question of whether publicly shaming the person as Richards did was an acceptable response. I certainly do not think it was. But it's a separate issue.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#632

Post by wpietri »

ErrantX wrote: post #427
wpietri wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should talk to more women about this. I'm not suggesting women are scared little rabbits, running all the time. I'm saying that they are at substantial risk of sexual assault and other predation (US lifetime chance of sexual assault: 1 in 6), and are frequently aware of situations where they might possibly be in danger. It's an entirely rational response. I'm trying to help Joeboy see why well-meant and innocent-…

> You should talk to more women about this. Here's a bit of free advice :) when you start to use this argument, consider that perhaps you've run out of good rhetoric. You seem a decent enough guy, if a little clueless, so I'll give you more advice if I may. Making lewd comments certainly might make others feel uncomfortable (male or female), but the fear factor comes from attitude and presence, not the words. For exa…

Hi, Tom.

I have talked to actual women who tell me this. Why do you, as a guy, feel qualified to invalidate their experiences?

I don't think Adira felt immediate fear for her physical safety, no. But I do think fear of sexual harassment and sexual violence are an important reason why it is very important that "harmless" sexualization of professional situations isn't harmless at all.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#633

Post by katbyte »

clubhi wrote: post #628
groby_b wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait - being treated with professional courtesy is a privilege women have? Why did nobody ever tell me? Sex jokes have no place in the work place. Period. No matter the gender of the narrator or the audience.

You don't sound like much fun. I work with many women and men... We are all make horrible sex jokes throughout the day. Are you the guy sitting by yourself at lunch?

i worked at a place like that once, it was pretty boring and stale. I worked with co-wrokers.

Now i work some place like yours! (with both other women and men) and its great. I work with friends and acquaintances now not co-workers.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#634

Post by wpietri »

jessaustin wrote: post #256
wpietri wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine this situation: You are walking down the street. It starts to rain, so you duck into the nearest business, a bar. You order a beer, and realize that you have stepped into a gay bar. The table behind you starts making jokes about how virgin anuses are the best. They are pretty big guys, leather daddies. You worry they're talking about you, about your anus. You worry. That feeling of discomfort? The way your he…

I've spent some time in gay bars, and I'm not gay. (I have friends!) I've never felt the discomfort you're theorizing, even in those rowdy establishments where jokes are occasionally told. I can imagine feeling unsafe in a bar, but it wouldn't be because of a romantic proposal. I can't imagine feeling unsafe in an auditorium listening to a technical presentation at a conference.

Hi, Jess. I spend time in gay bars too. I also like them, and have never felt uncomfortable there. But elsewhere I was once hit on in a way that made me feel unsafe. It's not fun.

I'm glad that hasn't happened to you. But if this particular scenario doesn't help you to understand how you you might feel unsafe in a sexual context, go ahead and make up your own.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#635

Post by anthonyb »

Karunamon wrote: post #231
djcapelis wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's good for the goose... I think firing either party was a pretty daft idea for all types of poultry, or in this case, human beings. > Employers can people based on their personal lives all the time. Yeah, I think I'm saying I'm saying that in a lot of circumstances, that's pretty lame and we actively, as a community, saying that type of reaction is unwise. Instead, you have someone calling for it. This is only…

A tweet and a blog post that named and shamed two people, personally, in what I believe to be the biggest example of blowing something out of proportion in recent memory. So if I get this right.. Someone says a joke that offends you, in earshot, but not to you, and you take this as your opportunity to photograph them, get them kicked out of a con, fired, pilloried in public? And then you take to your blog to defend y…

They were not kicked out of the convention.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#636

Post by reeses »

anigbrowl wrote: post #488
mmanfrin wrote: post #44

I sure trust an anonymous pastebin from a throwaway account to make accusations about Adria's 'unfound accusations'. /s

Like many others, I formed a completely false impression from Adria's tweet, photo and blog post about who had made the offensive remarks. I thought it was the smiling gentleman looking straight into the lens of her camera ( https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/313417655879102464/... ). That turns out not to be the case (they guy who was fired clarified this on HN yesterday). I'm betting that at least some of Adr…

You're right, I had absolutely no doubt that smiling-guy was involved. I thought it especially harsh since you can CSI his name from his badge in about ten seconds with Imagemagick or MS Paint.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#637

Post by gfunk911 »

ceol wrote: post #466
gfunk911 wrote: post #47

I want to make a point that may or may not be applicable to this situation. Talking about sex is not inherently sexist. Making jokes about sex is not inherently sexist. It's inappropriate in a large number of places, but that doesn't make it sexist.

You're absolutely right it isn't inherently sexist. However, when these types of jokes become so common , and are almost always made by men, and sometimes made towards women, it contributes to a sexist atmosphere. I can't even use the example "What if you had to hear jokes about vaginas and breasts all the time?" since it doesn't carry the same weight for men as the opposite does for women. I wish commenters here wou…

I agree they were inappropriate, just not obviously sexist.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#638

Post by hazov »

wpietri wrote: post #614
potatolicious wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "You order a beer, and realize that you have stepped into a gay bar. The table behind you starts making jokes about how virgin anuses are the best. They are pretty big guys, leather daddies. You worry they're talking about you, about your anus. You worry." Only if you live in a world where gay men are, by default, rapists. Are we seriously replacing sexism with homophobia? Your analogy is far more offensive than th…

You're missing the point. Men aren't normally afraid of sexual assault, because most sexual assault is perpetrated by men on women. If you want to the feeling of fear that a potential victim feels, you have to imagine a situation where you feel at risk of sexual assault. If that story doesn't make you feel sufficiently uncomfortable to have empathy for women surrounded by a bunch of men when the context suddenly turn…

This is rape paranoia, if you feel that's fine then good for you, as I see it it's no better than racial profiling.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#639

Post by jessaustin »

mistercow wrote: post #495
ineedtosleep wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. If you're sitting in a restaurant eating with some acquaintances/friends, you shouldn't expect privacy there either. The table next to you can get offended with some random inside joke that includes the words "penis", "boob", or maybe even "yoga pants." No jokes allowed unless you're wrapped in a Faraday cage filled in with sound proof material. None whatsoever.

That analogy is completely ridiculous. Restaurants are not venues that require customers to agree to a code of conduct barring inappropriate jokes. They're also not the kind of places where people are sitting quietly and near enough each other to hear jokes told quietly.

If PyCon is one of these "venues that require customers to agree to a code of conduct barring inappropriate jokes", many people will consider whether it's a venue in which they feel safe.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#640

Post by swah »

codesuela wrote: post #65
danilocampos wrote: post #22

Couple pieces to this. First – the fact that this guy's employer made a kneejerk reaction is no one's fault but the employer. Next – let's talk about this red herring of "sexism." Making a phallus joke might be sexist depending on context. Or it might not be. Sexism is not at issue here. The individual in question concedes that they did, in fact, make the joke. From PyCon's code of conduct: "All communication should…

Are you seriously suggesting the code of conduct applies to PRIVATE conversations between TWO people who obviously know each other? It is not like they meant to offend somebody. I am assuming they weren't talking loudly but rather meant to converse between each other. How I talk to my buddy is no ones fucking business. How about you tell your friend of of those an American, a Russian and a German walk into a bar joke…

In my workplace, we migh say that someone has a tiny dick and its a very light joke that every laughs about.
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