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Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

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Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#631

Post by mnicole »

chrisivens wrote: post #596
mnicole wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, I was confused why he thought I would be offended by that when my point was that the joke was a non-issue. That sketch is fantastic and isn't new to me. What I find so silly about this whole thing - which is exactly what the skit helps imply - is that you can hardly even say the word dongle without laughing; you don't even need to know what it really is to see the low-hanging humor in it (no pun intended). It'…

Although I commented on the wrong part of the thread, my point was that if we are able to accept a sketch on tv mentioning a dongle in good humour, why is it a sackable offence within earshot of someone? Granted it's toilet humour but who doesn't like that every now and again. Being a programmer, I'd love to have more women in my industry and indeed within my workplace. The problem has been exacerbated by Adria and h…

You might want to re-read my original post, I agree with everything you just said.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#632

Post by mum61e »

Gloria_Sass wrote: post #627
mnicole wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully you are still reading the comments here as I'm just catching up on all of this and watching how it is continuing to unfold. Please don't apologize. As other women before me already have, I want to apologize for this incident; honestly I probably would have been giggling myself if I was in an earshot of you. With respect to Adria's past and her sensitivity to the triggers she refers to, a comment like this i…

I am glad to see I'm not the only woman with this opinion. Frankly, I think mr-hank should file criminal charges, under VAWA section 2261A on stalking, which states that an individual is guilty of stalking if, with intent to harass or intimidate another person, uses the mail, any interactive computer service or electronic communication service or electronic communication system of interstate commerce, or any other fa…

Or there is also "Eavesdropping on conversations that are none of your business is just bad manners."

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#633

Post by CRConrad »

mkr-hn wrote: post #626
CRConrad wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Only, it's changing the age-old term strawmen to "strawpeople" that is the language policing here.

I can't police my own language. I chose the word. I have that right.

No, apparently you can't police your own language. But your act of "correcting" strawman to "strawperson" IS an act of "language policing" -- you're policing the language of the person who used "strawman".

And it was you yourself who said that language policing proves one wrong.

Sure, you do indeed have the right to prove yourself wrong.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#634

Post by cmbtyc »

zallen wrote: post #547
mkr-hn wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It probably wouldn't be a big deal in a more equitable society, but an innocent remark can easily be taken the wrong way when it comes after the chain of sexism women deal with in any given day. Someone wrote an article (that I can't find) about how she felt bad about all those times she overreacted to an innocent remark, and how it was probably counterproductive. It's hard to filter the harmless dongle jokes from th…

The post you're trying to recall was this: http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/ Women in tech often are exposed to a culture of subtle denigration. A single incident may not seem like a big deal (and, in fact, isn't), but when it's the eighth one that day...

We supposedly live in a democracy.

what the employers should do is poll their company employees and customers and target audiences/industry and let the population decide both the guy that got fired and Adria's fate.

I bet that we'd find an overwhelming support for the guy RETAINING his job, and Adria REMAINING fired.

The problem with this case is one woman, with a huge social following and thus a LOUD COMMUNICATOR in the social media sense had a disproportionate affect on people around her. It's always those who yell loudest who seem to get disproportionate attention and time. The best punishment for someone like her is to be shunned and ignored, thus taking away her ability to abuse the power she wields.

As another father of 3 children I am EXTREMELY OFFENDED by her reaction and the impact it has had on the guy who happened to be unlucky enough to be sitting behind her.

His wife, and all 3 of his children, not to mention himself will be put through an incredible amount of stress to their marriage and family due to the loss of his job, and that is simply UNACCEPTABLE just because she couldn't keep out of their business and do what every other mature person would do, ignore them.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#635

Post by cmbtyc »

danielweber wrote: post #290
uptown wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defamation.

This will be a huge stretch of the law. It would be doubtful that one could succeed against her even under UK-type laws, to say nothing of American law. Truth is a defense. Did they not do what she reported them as saying? (NB: I'm not saying I approve of her behavior, but trying to paint her as legally responsible is out there.)

I say the guy put up his situation and case on those crowd funding/fundraising sites and raise money for his legal case.

Sue her individually for defamation et al. and tie her up in court. Let her pay the REAL price for wielding a public, 10,000 follower strong opinion against a privately intended comment.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#636

Post by jimbo-juiicee »

naasking wrote: post #582
Zoonie wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heavy sigh. This is the crux of the matter, people. The NSPCC in the UK reports that 30% of girls (and I think you can therefore extend that to women) admit to having been subjected to sexualised assault. And that's admit . Who knows what the true figure is. As your female friends, or indeed, if you are female, have you yourself been assaulted? Now, imagine for a moment sitting in a conference, which is a known space…

> You really have to wake up, guys. Wake Up. It's not you, who are spending your lives looking over your shoulders. It really isn't. So. Whilst I do not agree it was the best of actions, I wholly defend the right of anyone to take it. And will therefore stand by them if they do. I just want to highlight that you're supporting an exaggerated public shaming for people who were just exchanging words in a semi-private co…

Just no, her behavior was unacceptable, she got him fired via publicizing the event not because of his actions, she demonstrated she's clearly emotionally unstable and she should be avoided in the future by companies,as for women have to spend their whole lives looking over their shoulders? I'm sure you don't realize this but 1) it was in front of 100s of people in public she could have easily told him to shut up. And 2) men make up the vast majority of every single crime except sexual assult, so don't act like this world is a safehaven for men and a everyday warzone for women, what she did, was clearly out of order, how would you like to get your family and career destroyed for making a slightly crude non-sexist joke?

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#637

Post by mkr-hn »

CRConrad wrote: post #633
mkr-hn wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't police my own language. I chose the word. I have that right.

No, apparently you can't police your own language. But your act of "correcting" strawman to "strawperson" IS an act of "language policing" -- you're policing the language of the person who used "strawman". And it was you yourself who said that language policing proves one wrong. Sure, you do indeed have the right to prove yourself wrong.

What is this nonsense? Go away.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#638

Post by kellyscholey »

mnicole wrote: post #282
mr-hank wrote: post #23

Hi, I'm the guy who made a comment about big dongles. First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position. However, there is another side to this story. While I did make a big dongle joke about a fictional piece hardware that identified as male, no sexual jokes…

Hopefully you are still reading the comments here as I'm just catching up on all of this and watching how it is continuing to unfold. Please don't apologize. As other women before me already have, I want to apologize for this incident; honestly I probably would have been giggling myself if I was in an earshot of you. With respect to Adria's past and her sensitivity to the triggers she refers to, a comment like this i…

I find this whole situation very frustrating so much so I wrote a blog post about it. It's people like Adria who discourage women to join or take part in our industry.

http://lovefromkelly.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/life-as-female-d...

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#639

Post by CitizenTekk »

Full disclosure: I'm a girl with three older brothers and have been around a ton of guy-humor.

---

Hey everyone, I do feel really bad for "mr-hank." I personally would not have been offended by his comments ... I probably would have found them funny. I go to a lot of tech conferences (and I have 3 older brothers), but girls joke about things, too. I'm just not one to freak out about the word "dongle" or "fork." The implications seem fairly innocent to me.

But listen, it was Playhaven who sparked this controversy. The funny part ... is that Anonymous touts freedom of the internet ... their founding principle was to be against internet censorship. They attacked the Westboro Baptist Church for taking down a YouTube video of Tom Cruise. So, I'm really surprised they went after SendGrid over a freedom of speech case on Twitter. There's no doubt that Richards has the right to report on something that happens in real-time. That's a basic right for citizen journalism. I come from a journalist and analyst background, so am pretty passionate about the freedom to report.

Long story short, I think there's a lot of attention on the gender gap in technology right now and it's feeling very forced and uncomfortable ... i.e. lots of press and publicity.

I think empowering, rather than squabbling, is really important right now. This gender gap change has to come from the top (as Cisco pointed out recently in their awesome statement about not being very supportive and dedicating to doing better).

http://dthin.gs/Z1yKQC

It's the long-standing corporate powers who need to be symbolically "fired" (or otherwise reprimanded) - not mr-hank.

And it was Playhaven who started this unjust controversy - not citizen journalism by Adria Richards.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#640

Post by mjn »

theorique wrote: post #214
mr-hank wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately in this case there were more downsides than could have been predicted. I personally helped recruit 2 young women over the course of the weekend who were looking for junior/intern positions. They both seemed very passionate about development and well qualified. Before I lost access to my corporate account I was able to get one of their resumes to my manager but I'm afraid the other might have gone down w…

Appropriate reaction: slap on the wrist, "hey dude, that joke's not cool - consider your audience next time", maybe at most a little note in the old HR file. Inappropriate reaction: what actually happened. FWIW, I deplore the high-tech lynching that has taken place, and I'm sorry you lost your job over this drama. I know that my sympathies and $4 gets you a Starbucks latte, but I just want to add my voice to the chor…

I agree, though I've got to say, I blame the employer the most here. Unlike in a real "lynching", the internet mob did not kill anyone, or even cost them their jobs. Some HR person at a company decided to make an employment decision based on some internet controversy, and I think they need to own that decision.

In this overall controversy there is a strange amount of blaming two people, on either side, who did not make the decision to fire someone. The people who own that decision are whoever it is at PlayHaven and SendGrid who call the shots.

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