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Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

projekte.sueddeutsche.de

631–640 of 817 posts

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch Chomsky's Requiem for an American Dream if you want a great analysis of the cyclical nature of corporate power being further and further entrenched as they gain more power to write the laws that benefit them.

Chomsky's solution? Moar state !

Of course, because he's so find of power structures in general. *Queue eye rolling

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#632
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't, for the most part, doing anything illegal though. They are using the existing laws to their best advantage. The fix for this can't be trying to appeal to their morals. It would have to be something else that just limits the legal choices. Edit: If you disagree, are you saying that shaming them into not doing this solely on some moral compass is the right fix? Does that scale?

You're acting like laws are an unmoving fundamental property of the universe. In reality these very companies have reshaped the laws to their own advantage. Companies that lobby on tax policy demonstrably pay lower taxes; see e.g., https://sunlightfoundation.com/2012/04/16/lobby-more-pay-les...

This is absolutely the key point here.

The reason large corporations have more power is ... they have more power. They can afford to not only find loopholes, but also exploit ones with higher barrier-to-entry, AND lobby for additional ones.

Many corporations probably DON'T want loopholes that are "too easy" because then smaller businesses would be able to use them as well and become potential competitors. Kind of like how Comcast sues any potential competitor into oblivion using frivolous lawsuits. The cost to entry into the ISP market? The price of a good legal defense that can defeat Comcast. (Read: Nothing to do with the actual hardware/manpower)

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch Chomsky's Requiem for an American Dream if you want a great analysis of the cyclical nature of corporate power being further and further entrenched as they gain more power to write the laws that benefit them.

Chomsky's solution? Moar state !

AKA Control of the society that is...

1) Openly documented 2) Viewable by all 3) Accountable to the people not the highest bidder

Exactly as the Founding Fathers wrote and spoke of it? They were pre-capitalist, saw the origins of capitalist philosophy beginning, and wrote of their fears about where that will lead a country of free people; straight into the back pockets of the elite (remember the crown was essentially the same way, owned/controlled all, required the masses to entertain them and provide value for THEM).

You seem convinced contributing to your government is a scam, and you should go shovel whatever for some rich wanker.

You got something else to add? Or are you going to just regurgitate the banal fear mongering of the last 200 years?

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch Chomsky's Requiem for an American Dream if you want a great analysis of the cyclical nature of corporate power being further and further entrenched as they gain more power to write the laws that benefit them.

Chomsky's solution? Moar state !

Well, regulations work pretty damn well for the FCC's control of the wireless spectrum.

So some regulations definitely work.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#635
post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

If governments want to effectively tax the largest players, they would need to take up arms against those companies and spill some blood. Or at least grab a few top level executives and put a gun to their head and lock them in a cage. Do you see that happening? Of course not, it sounds entirely insane. And the executives know that. For them, however, the true sociopaths who rise to the top because they are willing to do literally any thing short of slitting their own throat in order to be at the top, a gun in the face is the sole thing they will listen to. When they accept that as their standard of having their behavior changed in a room full of people not bankrupt enough to pull a trigger? They don't have a single thing to worry about.

Those who fail to learn from history will be doomed to repeat it. All the things you really wish to cry out "but no one would DO that"... can you really not think of any examples from history where it already has been done? And on smaller scales even? Why would someone now not be willing to do it for much higher stakes?

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#636
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't, for the most part, doing anything illegal though. They are using the existing laws to their best advantage. The fix for this can't be trying to appeal to their morals. It would have to be something else that just limits the legal choices. Edit: If you disagree, are you saying that shaming them into not doing this solely on some moral compass is the right fix? Does that scale?

You're acting like laws are an unmoving fundamental property of the universe. In reality these very companies have reshaped the laws to their own advantage. Companies that lobby on tax policy demonstrably pay lower taxes; see e.g., https://sunlightfoundation.com/2012/04/16/lobby-more-pay-les...

I wonder how many of these comments are made by Apple's legal or PR team posing as normal people... Certainly they have the reach and resources for this kind of thing too. Rarely do we get to have a real public discussion on such topics without adulteration by these parties with personal motivations and associated power.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#637
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fix can certainly involve appealing to morals and human responsibility. A company is, after all, just a group of people. This should be a very strong tactic considering how liberal Silicon Valley is. The major players preach constantly about progressive ideals, yet fail to do more than the minimum when push comes to shove. My business partner and I purposefully pay normal taxes, avoiding accountants' crazy tax re…

If all the air molecules in a box spontaneously moved to one side of it at the same time, you could defeat entropy. This is no more likely to happen than the big players making it the norm to avoid tax reduction schemes. In a box filled with air, molecules moving to one side leave a gap which results in increased pressure for molecules to move the other way. The same is true of big companies and taxes. You might be a…

Literally anything you do at scale will kill people unless your factories are 100% in equilibrium with nature.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't actually prevent you from leaving though, and is probably seen by many (most?) people as entirely fair.

It prevents you from leaving if you can't afford to pay the tax. And lol, how is an exit tax even remotely fair? Would you have described the USSR's exit visas as fair too? The US acts like it owns its citizens as property. The tax regime around citizenship is dangerously close to crossing the line to slavery.

Presumably you have to pay the tax due to capital gains on assets you own, so the solution is pretty simple: sell a fraction of those assets to cover the tax. This really isn't rocket science.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#639
post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all the air molecules in a box spontaneously moved to one side of it at the same time, you could defeat entropy. This is no more likely to happen than the big players making it the norm to avoid tax reduction schemes. In a box filled with air, molecules moving to one side leave a gap which results in increased pressure for molecules to move the other way. The same is true of big companies and taxes. You might be a…

Literally anything you do at scale will kill people unless your factories are 100% in equilibrium with nature.

Why? Toxic emissions aren’t a given, they’re just cheaper than neutralizing or containing them.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#640
post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a so-called "general anti-avoidance rule" (GAAR) https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/tax-avoidance-gen... Effectively if your tax arrangements are weird enough they have to be submitted to a judicial-like body to determine whether they are for some sort of legitimate business purpose or purely for the purpose of tax avoidance. An example: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm... "Pa…

Really cool thanks for the pointer! Has GAAR been effective in the UK at preventing tax havens?

Apple were apparently able to consider both Jersey and the Isle of Man (both British Crown Dependencies) for substantially reducing their tax exposure, so it's presumably questionable, but this is the first I've heard of GAAR. The UK Parliament has the ability to create primary legislation on any matter it wishes in these regions, even if by convention it rarely does, and Jersey and the Isle of Man have had arguably justified reputations as tax havens for a long time in the UK.

One only needs to look at the other leaks in this dump to see the attraction of these locations (Formula 1 driver Lewis Hamilton stashing his private jet on the Isle of Man to avoid a substantial VAT bill etc).

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