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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#621

Post by danbolt »

amluto wrote: post #548
nemo44x wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gas alliances are significantly cheaper to run. Also perform better. Gas dryers are awesome compared to electric for example. Plus electric goes out often. Gas doesn’t.

Stoves aren’t particularly expensive to run, but gas stoves are hilariously inefficient and induction is nearly 100% efficient. And gas stoves plus the heat loss due to required ventilation in a cold climate are even worse. Gas heat and hot water may be cheaper or more expensive than heat pumps depending on utility rates and climate. Too bad residential gas-fires cogeneration isn’t really a thing.

I found the excess heat from gas stoves really hard on my hands while cooking. I thought I’d hate switching to an electric resistive one, but not having all that extra heat in the kitchen has been really nice during summer months.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#622

Post by john_the_writer »

askvictor wrote: post #520
pclmulqdq wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you don't use that stove to cook, because if you do, you are putting hundreds of times more harmful particulates into the air than the stove puts out alone. This is the same kind of "green"-feeling hypocrisy as the plastic bag bans. After Australia banned plastic bags, they found an increased amount of plastic in their landfills. Why? Because people used to re-use them as trash bags and were now buying much th…

> I hope you don't use that stove to cook, because if you do, you are putting hundreds of times more harmful particulates into the air than the stove puts out alone. Really depends on how you cook. If you're not frying, this isn't really a problem. > This is the same kind of "green"-feeling hypocrisy as the plastic bag bans. After Australia banned plastic bags, they found an increased amount of plastic in their landf…

Ha ha..

I know we're supposed to, but I've not changed one bit because of these new bags. A typical shop is now 1$ more expensive with the bags, that's where I stop thinking about it.

When I'm out, and my wife calls me to ask me to pick up something at the shop, I don't have my plastic bag with me, so I buy another one. And it ends up in the bin. Now instead of a thin bit of plastic, I've got a bag that's easily 5 times thicker, and took way more to produce.

It's performative.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#623

Post by grepfru_it »

azemetre wrote: post #447
iamdamian wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but this regulation targets everyone in the state of New York, not just renters, and the research I've read seems to indicate that fume hoods protect against this indoor pollution.

I have never seen an actual fume hood in any residential home in my life (close to 800 homes across the South and New England. I have seen plenty of faux hoods that do absolutely nothing. Maybe it's something they only add in luxury homes.

Grew up in NJ. I had a real stove vent hood. A lot of my friends had a real vent hood. It’s very normal I guess depending on the exit of i95.

Thinking back so did my home in VA, DC and my last two homes in TX. I wonder what is different about our scenarios

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#624

Post by john_the_writer »

dbsmith83 wrote: post #573
ahoy wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I _rent_ a home, as do a full half of new york state residents. I'd love an electric stove. Every rental I've ever lived in has a gas stove and no fume hood. The full half of new yorkers who rent - almost 20 million people - mostly get whatever theirlandlord picked. So when I read posts like this, decrying government overreach, I wonder if you've ever been poor? Have you ever lived here? Do you know what youre talkin…

Your logic makes no sense. Make laws requiring landlords to properly vent gas stoves, not ban them altogether.

Nah.. 90% of places would be grand-fathered in. A landlord won't spend money on fixing the heat, they're not putting in duct work and a vent.

Practically speaking how would a building do this, without costing thousands. Who do you think the land-lord will pass that cost to?

I grew up in Canada with electric stoves (in multiple rentals). Never once did I have an issue cooking.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#625

Post by analog31 »

c22 wrote: post #567
analog31 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My gas heat goes down if electricity fails.

You can rewire the ignition circuit to a car battery if you're desperate.

Gas valve and igniter run on low voltage, I think the combustion blower runs on 120 VAC, the main blower that distributes the heat to the rest of the house is definitely 120 VAC. A small gas generator that can provide maybe a kW would probably be the most straightforward backup.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#626

Post by giardini »

ricardobayes wrote: post #315
Aunche wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use Gas cooking makes sense when the infrastructure costs can be amortized with that of heating. One of these costs is the 2-3% of gas that leaks, and this loss will occur even if you heat your home with heat pumps so long as you're connected to the gas grid. If your only use of gas is cooking, it makes much more se…

In my area I got a 50k quote to get connected to mains gas even though it's less than 200 meters away. They can pound sand, even the a state-of-the-art heat pump system is a fraction of that.

Possibly get a reasonable bid for a propane gas system?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#627

Post by kelipso »

topaz0 wrote: post #440
annexrichmond wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

To be clear, I used to believe the gas stove propaganda myself. I too, like GP, had the feeling that gas was self-evidently better than electric, and that it wasn't possible to have an argument about it. Then I tried being open-minded about it and found the arguments for electric (and my experiences, once I gave it a chance) to be very convincing.

[flagged]

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#628

Post by giardini »

0xdead8ead wrote: post #114
someonehere wrote: post #22

Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo... California's electric grid is in horrendous shape. We can barely keep the power on in the summertime, especially when wildfires happen. When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ?

Eugene tried this as well. City council passed it without input from the community and is facing backlash. Since the 9th circuit decision, the ordinance has been called into question. https://www.bendbulletin.com/business/eugene-s-natural-gas-b... The community has since generated enough signatures to put the ban to a public vote that will be voted on in November. Anecdotally, I'd say, most my neighbors are against t…

"...my own methane composting biogas bladder."

I heard President Biden wears one, at the request of his wife.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#629

Post by amluto »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #601
sonarone wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clicking on the correction shows that correction is just on a single figure, so that's not supporting your argument: > A corrected version of Figure 3 is below, where in Panel A r2 = 0.59 is changed to r2 = 0.58.

Yeah, I generally follow the idea that if a paper has one revealed error, it probably has a lot more errors that they didn't provide enough evidence to catch, so I didn't read what the correction was. This is a pretty dumb error to get through the writing process. Also, if you want to see some well-cited posts on the tenuous evidence of health effects of NOx, other posts in this comments section have plenty of source…

On a quick search, NO may not be particularly toxic at the concentrations in question. (And your body produces it!). NO seems like it’s mostly a problem outdoors because of other stuff it reacts with.

But NO2 is certainly toxic, and it looks like stoves product about 1/4 as much NO2 as total NOx.

(I also recall reading that stoves, with no pot or pan on them, produce minimal CO, but that gas ovens produce lots of CO. Also, residential gas ovens are IMO really quite bad at cooking.)

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#630

Post by tptacek »

Freedom2 wrote: post #613
tptacek wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in China routinely use woks on electric stoves; they're just as common in China as they are here. There's a lot of mythology about woks and wok hei, most of which is based on people confusing restaurant cooking techniques with home cooking. This issue isn't racially coded.

This is my experience as well. I've spoken to Chinese co-workers who cook a lot of traditional food at home, and they have zero issues with electric stoves (induction or no) for cooking with a wok. As for those who claim that gas stoves are needed for wok cooking w/ specific techniques, most people who I've actually asked about what they cook on the wok is basically "fried rice", or even worse, they don't actually ha…

For what it's worth: I have a fussy gas range and I'd be peeved to have to give it up, and I don't have an opinion about whether it's good or bad to require new construction to use induction. But the racial angle on this is risible. It's evidence of bad faith argument.
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