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Poor in Tech

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Re: Poor in Tech

#621

Post by buescher »

sokoloff wrote: post #594
buescher wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your math is off - for TCO you should be counting financing costs, not the payment itself. You don't really get away from financing costs by buying cash, incidentally: then they become the opportunity cost of not having the cash invested. I think people wildly overestimate how much you can save by driving a used car. Used cars are frequently overpriced due to demand for lower up-front costs and lower payments. Edmund…

The cashflow differences between buying an $8K car for cash and a $40K car with 20% down are the entire monthly payment [plus the required collision insurance], not just the interest charge portion. I'd wager that poor people are generally running their lives on a cashflow basis, not on an accrual basis. When I was a near-broke college student, that's how I thought. With regard to the savings of paying cash being off…

Yes, that difference, as I pointed out, is one reason why sensible used cars are overpriced. (Another is the "market for lemons" effect)

Now you're comparing a $40K new car to a $8K used car, which is not a reasonable comparison. Yes, used cars will save you some money, but they will generally cost you more money than driving a new Corolla or Civic. Poke around on Edmunds' TCO calculator. The problem with your argument is that you can save more and more money by imagining buying an even more expensive car to compare to. I mean, you could have bought an $80K car with 10% down, right? Now you saved $72K!!!

Re: Poor in Tech

#623

Post by watwut »

gonehome wrote: post #575
watwut wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Donald Trump is as high class as it gets. From upbringing to the way his career developed. To the people he socializes with. > Being rich and well-connected for long periods ... which can persist even when the wealth doesn't, and continue to confer benefits. Preferring golf or tennis to say, bowling, doesn't necessarily come with a major difference in affordability. But being good at golf might help your career more…

I think this is wrong and misses the point. A lot of his political popularity is because while he’s rich, the way he speaks is “working class”. He’s a good example of the difference we’re talking about.

My point is, he speaks exactly how he learned to speak in environment of rich people.

He is not all that much how actual working class behaves. Instead, he is his how middle class imagines working class. And people who vote him are economically not the poorest either. And he is also what poor people imagine super rich to be.

Re: Poor in Tech

#624

Post by jonemi »

kixiQu wrote: post #581
jonemi wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I CAN relate because I grew up poor, have a GED, have student loans because my parents didn't pay for my education, live in a poorer area than my coworkers, have a really old phone, worried about bothering potential mentors, don't fit in at the gym, relish bonuses, overeat free food because it's free (pre-covid), talk to janitors, was paid less than colleagues, etc. and yet I still find her sentiment negative, classi…

Why do you think it's negative? It isn't a piece diagnosing the roots of inequality, and it doesn't pretend to be. It isn't a piece about "how I got here", and it shouldn't have to be. It's a piece about the weird aspects of not having a very, very specific background in tech, and her internal experience of those. It's not "here let me lay out the Nature Of The Thing Universally". I don't understand why you're holdin…

I think it's negative because I think it focuses on the negative. It's just my opinion and my opinion can be like the author's—my interpretation of something based on my experiences. And it certainly doesn't have to advance the conversation or be about how "she got here", but I wish it would have because I think that would've been more useful. I'm OK if we disagree.

I was primarily responding to the parent who intimated those irritated by it can't relate. I was irritated and CAN relate. That was my primary point.

Re: Poor in Tech

#625

Post by sokoloff »

buescher wrote: post #621
sokoloff wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cashflow differences between buying an $8K car for cash and a $40K car with 20% down are the entire monthly payment [plus the required collision insurance], not just the interest charge portion. I'd wager that poor people are generally running their lives on a cashflow basis, not on an accrual basis. When I was a near-broke college student, that's how I thought. With regard to the savings of paying cash being off…

Yes, that difference, as I pointed out, is one reason why sensible used cars are overpriced. (Another is the "market for lemons" effect) Now you're comparing a $40K new car to a $8K used car, which is not a reasonable comparison. Yes, used cars will save you some money, but they will generally cost you more money than driving a new Corolla or Civic. Poke around on Edmunds' TCO calculator. The problem with your argume…

I took the average cost of a new car in 2020 or 2021. Make it a $28K new car instead of an $8K used car and you're still saving a ton of money even with a few repairs along the way.

I know plenty of people who owe money other than a mortgage who are driving $50K+ cars/trucks and sometimes have more cars than drivers in the household (and both of those blow my mind for people with non-mortgage debt).

Re: Poor in Tech

#626

Post by tomp »

bsanr2 wrote: post #273
Applejinx wrote: post #155

"Three paychecks is a month and a half of income (rent and two car payments by my fevered calculations, which never stop)" Pay attention to those last three words. This is very important. I've been on both sides too, and to me those words are like a slap in the face: stark reality. If you're poor enough (relative to the costs of your life) you are at a constant exhausting deficit because you CANNOT stop calculating a…

Tl;dr Poor people (and racial and ethnic minorities, and women, and queer folk) are not dumb. They just have to turn their equal cognitive resources towards things other (and more fundamental to survival) than their magnum opus/business idea/etc. Those who overcome this are HIGHLY effective, but it's not fair that we ask it of them. That's not how an effective or efficient or just society runs, and we leave money on…

Women?

You do realize that men are more often victims of violent attacks and murders than women? Many (most?) of us are always vigilant for signs of potential violence, particularly when surrounded by groups of seemingly violent and/or armed people.

Re: Poor in Tech

#628

Post by jonemi »

watwut wrote: post #587
jonemi wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I CAN relate because I grew up poor, have a GED, have student loans because my parents didn't pay for my education, live in a poorer area than my coworkers, have a really old phone, worried about bothering potential mentors, don't fit in at the gym, relish bonuses, overeat free food because it's free (pre-covid), talk to janitors, was paid less than colleagues, etc. and yet I still find her sentiment negative, classi…

> In my opinion, this comes off as shaming privileged people for their privilege. I don't understand where do you see shaming. Even in points I think fit me, where I am rich person, I did not felt shamed at all. In points where I could relate to her, I did not perceived myself as victim. > she focuses exclusively on her disadvantages. Most of points don't compare her to others in a sense of gaining advantages or disa…

Yep, she can write about whatever she wants. Some people like it, I thought it was unhelpful. I wish it were something else and you're glad it isn't. Cool.

I mostly wanted to say I can relate AND didn't like it, responding to the parent.

Re: Poor in Tech

#629

Post by filoleg »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #365
maury91 wrote: post #209

I'm from a "poorish" family, but from Europe. Some stuff is relatable some is not: - People ordering lunch always felt weird for me, in my mind I think "why should I pay 10€ for a bowl of salad, when I can go to the grocery store below the office and have the same for 1€", or even better pay 70 cents for the raw vegetables, wash them and chop them in the office and they will last 3 days - Student debt doesn't apply,…

I grew up dirt poor in a police no-go zone, went on to spend roughly 18 months in homeless hostels over a few years, etc. Honestly, I feel like lots of these are related to being a poorly paid member of the tech company or having work at more working class companies. When I started out, I literally ate toast for lunch every day because it was provided and I had no other money as time went on I got paid more and I was…

No desire to comment on the rest of the OP points, but the one about gym was the most baffling one to me. Out of all places I could think of, gym is one of the most accepting places ever for all kinds of people (including extremely obese people).

From my own observations, people at the gym tend to fall in one of the 2 categories: they are either (a) extremely supportive or (b) totally not caring about anything but getting their own workout done and getting out. Of course there could be exceptions, but the only time i've ever even heard of such a thing happening, those types of people usually get shunned by the rest of gym goers for being assholes and ultimately banned from gyms.

In fact, more often than not, when I see a person at the gym who is clearly a very beginner (judging purely by how they are walking around for a while trying to find a specific piece of equipment, regardless of whether they are obese or not), I almost instantly see other gym goers helping them out with minor stuff or cheering them on weeks later once they accomplish a milestone. From my personal experience, the most intimidating-looking fit people at the gym end up being the nicest and most helpful towards beginners.

This sidenote aside, I find it extremely suspicious that the OP just said "It was crystal clear I don't belong" in reference to gym, without any specifics. What made it "clear" to her? The fact that she was looking at other people and realized that a lot of them were a bit further along their journey to being fit? Or did something actually happen that made her feel that way? Because a lot of her other points and complaints seem to have a lot of specifics, but this one has absolutely none.

It is also a bit strange how she is all about utilizing all other benefits and perks provided by the company, as evident by her mentioning tons of specific instances of that (no shame in that, as everyone should feel empowered to take advantage of things offered to them by the employer for free). She even rationalizes a lot of it as something due to her being from a rather poor background, even if she knows she shouldn't utilize those as much (drinking until getting sick, because it is free). But when it comes to the gym membership covered by her employer, she is totally willing to give up this perk, despite it usually being a pretty valuable perk in terms of costs covered.

Re: Poor in Tech

#630

Post by dang »

isomorph wrote: post #116

Many of the comments on this article are so cold. I can’t believe it. When I read the original article I was imagining all the constructive ways HN readers would interpret it and hold a mirror up to their own behaviour. Some commenters are doing this. But it surprises and depresses me how many people are commenting saying “no, this list isn’t what it says it is, it’s a list showing the author has a negative mindset /…

This is a case of the contrarian dynamic: an initial wave of objections to the article, followed by a wave of objections to the objections. The latter get upvoted, and so we end up with a top comment saying "I can't believe the comments in this thread" or (as in the current example) "the comments here are so $bad_somehow". Recent explanation here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27145616. More: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

It's important to be aware that this is a mechanical process. The first comments to appear in a thread are there because they're the fastest to write, not because they come from "the average HN commenter". Another way of putting this is that the initial comments tend to be reflexive rather than reflective: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor.... (Objecting to objections can be reflexive also, but at least the second wave tends to be more substantive and charitable.)

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