Poor in Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Poor in Tech

#581

Post by kixiQu » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

jonemi wrote: post #500

sfg wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one of those articles you either relate to or don't and if you don't, you're going to pick up on the flaws. Not everyone that fails to relate will complain about those flaws, but any article designed to evoke emotions - as this one is - will inevitably stir up irritation in some, and those so stirred will complain about them. Written differently, but with the same message, it would carry more people with it, but…

I CAN relate because I grew up poor, have a GED, have student loans because my parents didn't pay for my education, live in a poorer area than my coworkers, have a really old phone, worried about bothering potential mentors, don't fit in at the gym, relish bonuses, overeat free food because it's free (pre-covid), talk to janitors, was paid less than colleagues, etc. and yet I still find her sentiment negative, classi…

Why do you think it's negative? It isn't a piece diagnosing the roots of inequality, and it doesn't pretend to be. It isn't a piece about "how I got here", and it shouldn't have to be. It's a piece about the weird aspects of not having a very, very specific background in tech, and her internal experience of those. It's not "here let me lay out the Nature Of The Thing Universally". I don't understand why you're holding it accountable to "advancing the conversation" about social mobility.

Re: Poor in Tech

#582

Post by 2cb » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

swader999 wrote: post #444

_underfl0w_ wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easier to do in some places than others. Public transport is nonexistent in several places here in Texas for example - you have to have a car (or know someone who does) to get to your job in the first place. But commuting puts wear and tear on the car, especially if you can't find work particularly close to where you live.

I read a book once on extreme early retirement that advised to pick your place of work and house so that they were within walking distance of each other and also walking distance to a grocery store. The quality of the work and even your income weren't as critical as this. The idea being the goal was to finish work as soon as possible in your life when investment income could take over. Live in a one room rental, have…

Or since this is tech we’re talking about, just work from home then live where you want, no need to be stuck in a tiny apartment in a big city.

Re: Poor in Tech

#583

Post by pnutjam » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

xenadu02 wrote: post #573

cryptica wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Your pay is forever tied to what you used to make. It's not just a psychological "avoid the subject" kind of trick. They literally refuse to give you raises no matter what. In my last job, I was likely the top developer in the company (the company had hundreds of millions of $ of runway just sitting there) and I was putting constant pressure on my boss for a raise and promotion for years (they even admitted that I…

I only realized a bit later in my career: If you ask for more and they refuse then bail out. You can nearly always get a raise just by moving companies so find one that rewards your efforts. My current employer is the first place I have felt like my achievements were appreciated and the appreciation resulted in financial rewards. I barely had to ask, let alone beg or fight for it.

Yeah, nobody gives raises anymore. The only place ever got raises, they were tied to a union contract that just happened to benefit me (a non-member). Every other place would give bonuses or 1% "raises" that didn't cover the increased insurance costs. Pay scales were only used to hold down salary, "we can't bring you in at the top of the pay scale".

Re: Poor in Tech

#584

Post by throwaway0a5e » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

Kharvok wrote: post #314

Why is it always people in tech-adjacent roles that trot this out? This kind of reads like someone falsely attributing class as a barrier when actually it's their cognitive abilities compared to peers. It always seems like the majority of the writer's woes would be solved if they were themselves more competent at what they do.

Because when you're actually getting a tech sized paycheck it's much easier to justify keeping your head down and continuing to make easy money, you're compensated well enough for what you have to put up with you don't care.

Re: Poor in Tech

#585

Post by xenadu02 » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #235

est31 wrote: post #10

> I knew I was the only poor person at my tech startup because I was the only person who would say hello to the cleaning lady as she meekly made her rounds around us when we worked late. Everyone else had a long habit of ignoring anyone like her. That's IMO the worst behaviour of the rich listed in this article. I've heard stories that at Google, the non-engineering workers at campus may not socialize with engineers…

> I've heard stories that at Google, the non-engineering workers at campus may not socialize with engineers at all. Googler for many years here. I've never heard of this kind of thing. One of the most prolific and loved content creators on the internal meme board is in sales. The closest thing I've ever heard like this in the entire valley is that at Apple they don't pay for the lunch bill of non-engineers, so having…

Apple's campus cafeteria is not a free perk for anyone, including engineers.

Re: Poor in Tech

#586

Post by webmaven » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

tasuki wrote: post #525

machello13 wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what you literally said, but why bring it up?

I'm just trying to put into perspective "poor people around the world" vs "poor people in the US". From my pov, if one can afford a car, it's a little rich to call oneself poor when compared to all the people who can't afford basic necessities. And no, a car isn't a basic necessity, not even in the US.

> And no, a car isn't a basic necessity, not even in the US.

This varies considerably. There are many places in the US that are entirely car dependent (nothing within walking distance, and little to no public transportation).

Re: Poor in Tech

#587

Post by watwut » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

jonemi wrote: post #500

sfg wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one of those articles you either relate to or don't and if you don't, you're going to pick up on the flaws. Not everyone that fails to relate will complain about those flaws, but any article designed to evoke emotions - as this one is - will inevitably stir up irritation in some, and those so stirred will complain about them. Written differently, but with the same message, it would carry more people with it, but…

I CAN relate because I grew up poor, have a GED, have student loans because my parents didn't pay for my education, live in a poorer area than my coworkers, have a really old phone, worried about bothering potential mentors, don't fit in at the gym, relish bonuses, overeat free food because it's free (pre-covid), talk to janitors, was paid less than colleagues, etc. and yet I still find her sentiment negative, classi…

> In my opinion, this comes off as shaming privileged people for their privilege.

I don't understand where do you see shaming. Even in points I think fit me, where I am rich person, I did not felt shamed at all. In points where I could relate to her, I did not perceived myself as victim.

> she focuses exclusively on her disadvantages.

Most of points don't compare her to others in a sense of gaining advantages or disadvantages. The biggest disadvantage was salary one and there the complain is mixed with her own behavior that helped situation to happen.

> She could probably say a lot about the hard work and lucky breaks she's had that have helped her advance in spite of her challenges

She could also write about drawing or socializing with buddies. Not everything have to be forced into "how I succeeded admire me" framework. Sometimes people write about other things.

Re: Poor in Tech

#588

Post by krysp » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

kubb wrote: post #135

est31 wrote: post #10

> I knew I was the only poor person at my tech startup because I was the only person who would say hello to the cleaning lady as she meekly made her rounds around us when we worked late. Everyone else had a long habit of ignoring anyone like her. That's IMO the worst behaviour of the rich listed in this article. I've heard stories that at Google, the non-engineering workers at campus may not socialize with engineers…

This might be a learned defence mechanism against a general feeling of wearines with the state of the world. You might work a (relatively) well-paying job at a megacorp, but often you're confronted with colleagues that get promotions through what seems like bullshit projects, you see how useless your directors or even execs seem to be and how much cash they pocket, and you're forced to do some sham work yourself, may…

This is probably a large part of it. The higher up the chain you go the more obvious it is - the system, the game, whatever you want to call it. Finally understanding what it means to sell your soul, and seeing that at least the janitor kept most of theirs.

Re: Poor in Tech

#589

Post by lazide » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

pnutjam wrote: post #462

Applejinx wrote: post #155

"Three paychecks is a month and a half of income (rent and two car payments by my fevered calculations, which never stop)" Pay attention to those last three words. This is very important. I've been on both sides too, and to me those words are like a slap in the face: stark reality. If you're poor enough (relative to the costs of your life) you are at a constant exhausting deficit because you CANNOT stop calculating a…

I noticed where the writer found out they were the lowest paid person. This is how the wealthy class really keep people from moving up. Your pay is forever tied to what you used to make. It's hard enough to break the circuit in your mind, it's near impossible to do so with your employer. At my current employer, they offered me a 10% paycut to convert from contract to FTE. I could not afford that, but I also can't aff…

Companies thrive (or die) off the difference between their costs and the amount they can get paid by customers.

There are many unscrupulous bosses that will use underhanded tricks to convince people to take less pay to help widen that margin. In my experience it is ultimately self defeating and results in lower quality people staying. In the short term, it is amazing what people can be convinced to accept (been there when I was younger). It’s also amazing what people can feel entitled too beyond the economics of a situation.

I’m glad you’ve been making some inroads.

Step 1 is fixing the ‘I can’t afford to be out of work’ part - it puts you in an incredibly disadvantaged negotiating position. You’re holding yourself hostage essentially.

Sometimes this is purely psychological (been there). Everything is so stressful it’s too overwhelming to look. It’s worth figuring out a way to get the emotional space there, or you’ll always be stuck.

Sometimes it’s already insufficient pay, in which case figuring out a way to interview for the higher paying job or get credentials for a better role is the best way forward. Sometimes partnerships with others to help save on costs (a classic traditional reason for marriage and cohabitation) can be really good for everyone.

Re: Poor in Tech

#590

Post by kixiQu » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

itsyaboi wrote: post #556

g_sch wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the author's point about stealing has more to do with the way low-wage workers are assumed to be criminals by their employers, and have to deal with various invasive security measures their employer requires.

> I think the author's point about stealing has more to do with the way low-wage workers are assumed to be criminals by their employers, and have to deal with various invasive security measures their employer requires. Assuming that all low-wage workers are criminals is obviously bad, from a "fellow human being" point of view. And yet, the author describes stealing $350 headphones in the last lines of the article bec…

Because it's the kind of thing high-salary workers do often without even considering it stealing. The headphones are used. If someone has a bougie enough job, they probably expect not to be assigned used headphones, and they don't think through whether the company would be selling them on because they certainly wouldn't bother in their own life. Alternately, there is a mindset of "oh, well, it'd be more money to clean them than they're worth at this point, they're just going to throw them out" (mentally estimating from the effort at the rate that that person is paid, not at the rate earned by the person who'd get stuck with the cleaning). Personally, I've seen people do this in ways I find shocking. The author is pointing out that she has also been affected by her environment, that she also has changed to act in ways she would have found unbelievable prior. I don't think it's trying to say "look I've advanced to act like these people".