Poor in Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Poor in Tech

#571

Post by buescher » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #392

tasuki wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many places around the world, poor people don't have "old car problems".

I think people wildly over-estimate the costs of driving an older (say 5-15 years old) car and so are prone to over-pay for a new or newer car, believing they're making a good choice based on flawed data. (They remember the time they had to dump $1200 into repairs into some old heap that isn't even shiny anymore. They don't remember that for the last 24 months in a row, they saved $450 in payments, $200 in depreciati…

Your math is off - for TCO you should be counting financing costs, not the payment itself. You don't really get away from financing costs by buying cash, incidentally: then they become the opportunity cost of not having the cash invested.

I think people wildly overestimate how much you can save by driving a used car. Used cars are frequently overpriced due to demand for lower up-front costs and lower payments. Edmunds' five-year TCO for a five-year-old Corolla LE is $27095, for a new one it's $26634.

Re: Poor in Tech

#572

Post by 2cb » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:38 PM UTC

username90 wrote: post #373

sophacles wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your intelligence is based on how much money your parents made? Your intrinsic ability to be educated is a function of someone else's wallet? Something seems off in this statement. I wish your parents had money, then your statement would probably be coherent!

No, intelligence is mostly inherited. If your biological parents were smart then you will almost surely be smart and vice versa. And smart people end to earn more money, so intelligence is indirectly correlated with parental wealth. But when you put kids from poor parents into rich households they will continue to do poorly. They do a bit better, but their biological parents still matters more. If it was easy to prod…

> If your biological parents were smart then you will almost surely be smart and vice versa.

Doesn’t really work like that. IQ is heavily influenced by environmental factors.

Re: Poor in Tech

#573

Post by xenadu02 » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:39 PM UTC

cryptica wrote: post #497

pnutjam wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I noticed where the writer found out they were the lowest paid person. This is how the wealthy class really keep people from moving up. Your pay is forever tied to what you used to make. It's hard enough to break the circuit in your mind, it's near impossible to do so with your employer. At my current employer, they offered me a 10% paycut to convert from contract to FTE. I could not afford that, but I also can't aff…

>> Your pay is forever tied to what you used to make. It's not just a psychological "avoid the subject" kind of trick. They literally refuse to give you raises no matter what. In my last job, I was likely the top developer in the company (the company had hundreds of millions of $ of runway just sitting there) and I was putting constant pressure on my boss for a raise and promotion for years (they even admitted that I…

I only realized a bit later in my career: If you ask for more and they refuse then bail out. You can nearly always get a raise just by moving companies so find one that rewards your efforts. My current employer is the first place I have felt like my achievements were appreciated and the appreciation resulted in financial rewards. I barely had to ask, let alone beg or fight for it.

Re: Poor in Tech

#574

Post by qq4 » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:40 PM UTC

> "..because I couldn’t restrain myself from eating and drinking myself into an absolute sickness anytime they threw a party and expressed no limits on our consumption, ..because I had the only fat body in the building, ..because I never got over not having to punch a clock, ..because I had gotten married younger than any of my coworkers.."

Having an eating disorder, being obese, being insecure about an early marriage and taking the time to notice people blowing their money away is not exclusive to poor people. I've been below the poverty line and grew up in a strapped-for-cash household, and I don't see how the author is making a point, or what having to be in tech has to do with it.

Re: Poor in Tech

#575

Post by gonehome » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:41 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #567

dcx wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No need to go for the throat there. And especially not when you're not totally correct. Paul Fussell's Class documents the exact phenomenon OP describes. Wealth is not class [1]; class is much more complex. For example, poor academics are higher class than rich blue-collar workers. Donald Trump is crazy rich but affects many of the working-class behaviours described in said book (technically "high prole"). Barack Oba…

Donald Trump is as high class as it gets. From upbringing to the way his career developed. To the people he socializes with. > Being rich and well-connected for long periods ... which can persist even when the wealth doesn't, and continue to confer benefits. Preferring golf or tennis to say, bowling, doesn't necessarily come with a major difference in affordability. But being good at golf might help your career more…

I think this is wrong and misses the point.

A lot of his political popularity is because while he’s rich, the way he speaks is “working class”.

He’s a good example of the difference we’re talking about.

Re: Poor in Tech

#576

Post by istjohn » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:42 PM UTC

bluecalm wrote: post #548

chris11 wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment wasn't that opposition to welfare programs was solely caused by racism, just that it was one motivation. It's easier to defend a racist policy if racism is never explicitly brought up, the policy just has a disparate impact along racial lines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater#%22Southern_strate...

Opposition to welfare programs happens in countries without race related problems as well. How do you distinguish between such opposition if you're going along with "that affects particular race more that's why they oppose it" argument. You can paint everyone to be racist this way.

Opposition to welfare is not racist per se. But it has been used by politicians and pundits in the US as a dog whistle to drive a racial wedge between white and Black Americans. It's not explicit, and that's the point [0].

0. https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/exclusive-lee-atwa...

Re: Poor in Tech

#577

Post by qq4 » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:42 PM UTC

fzil wrote: post #545

sdenton4 wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Consider also: just not owning a car. Bikes and transit for the day to day and occasional outlays for wknds in the mountains is cheaper than owning any car.)

That requires living in an expensive city, at least in North America.

The savings of not having a car might make up for that. I definitely don't miss having one.

Re: Poor in Tech

#578

Post by lazide » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

cryptica wrote: post #497

pnutjam wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I noticed where the writer found out they were the lowest paid person. This is how the wealthy class really keep people from moving up. Your pay is forever tied to what you used to make. It's hard enough to break the circuit in your mind, it's near impossible to do so with your employer. At my current employer, they offered me a 10% paycut to convert from contract to FTE. I could not afford that, but I also can't aff…

>> Your pay is forever tied to what you used to make. It's not just a psychological "avoid the subject" kind of trick. They literally refuse to give you raises no matter what. In my last job, I was likely the top developer in the company (the company had hundreds of millions of $ of runway just sitting there) and I was putting constant pressure on my boss for a raise and promotion for years (they even admitted that I…

It sounds like you took a particularly closed off and insular view of the ‘you control your own destiny’ meaning.

You left - you took control. You didn’t take control early enough however it sounds like, and started interviewing and looking for better options before losing emotional control and exploding.

You could have done that at any time. We often close off our own options and don’t really look to pursue things due to perceived risk, lack of experience, etc.

If you’d come in with a resignation letter, you might have walked out with a raise - and for sure either way had a better deal. If you’re not willing to walk away, you’re never really properly negotiating - you’re asking for favors.

The more you’re able and willing to walk away, the more of a real negotiation it is.

It can take decades to save up the capital necessary to be in this position. Some people have it by nature of who they were born from. It is what is is.

Re: Poor in Tech

#579

Post by lazide » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

chucky_z wrote: post #382

Applejinx wrote: post #155

"Three paychecks is a month and a half of income (rent and two car payments by my fevered calculations, which never stop)" Pay attention to those last three words. This is very important. I've been on both sides too, and to me those words are like a slap in the face: stark reality. If you're poor enough (relative to the costs of your life) you are at a constant exhausting deficit because you CANNOT stop calculating a…

I’ve been extremely lucky moving to the Bay Area to be someone who has not failed. I grew up poor. Today, I have enough money for rent and bills, I still think and worry about them. The endless what if’s are a lifetime long curse, and there is no cure.

Mindfulness, treatment/therapy, etc. can go a really, really long way though. Speaking as someone who’s been there.

Investing in yourself is absolutely key. It’s something most folks from our background have been taught to not even attempt. Not doing it just reinforces the cycle.

Re: Poor in Tech

#580

Post by ericmcer » Wed, May 19, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

don-code wrote: post #295

ludamad wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being HN, people love to debate, and god forbid you give an in for moral high-grounding. My student loans were crushing at one point. Now I require my friends and family to remind me the weight of a 'few thousands'. I feel drawn towards a bubble where I can do opulent activities without guilt. I've heard people say to me "yeah, eventually you just cut off those friends still working at McDonald's". I've never agreed…

> yeah, eventually you just cut off those friends still working at McDonald's That's profound. As "the friend in tech", I've never had this said to my face, but have definitely felt it. There's an us-versus-them mentality when it comes to dealing with those who aren't also in tech; that, somehow, there's no reason to be friends with those who aren't also white-collar professionals. What's more, my own tendency to be…

Yeah me too, my childhood friends are all still struggling financially (early 30s now). After a few years in tech I can finally afford vacations like Europe or lazing in Hawaii. My friends still view a vacation as driving to another friends house in a different state and crashing on their couch for a couple days. I don't want my vacation to be sleeping on a couch in a room with 3 other people.