Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#621

Post by JMTQp8lwXL » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:10 PM UTC

rmrfstar wrote: post #433

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A local government is only as good as its people. It's people squandered it, though forcing egregious zoning regulations that's leading to the exodus. They claimed profits to the point where it damaged their ability to collect further profits.

Isn't SF wildly corrupt? Do the puppet masters bear any responsibility for the outcomes they orchestrate? Or is stewardship an obsolete concept?

Assessing through the lens of strictly zoning laws, I don't think they've done anything wrong. If we (as a society) say zoning is controlled by local governments, and not the state government, then they are free to vote in people that pass (what I view) as draconian zoning policy.

My criticism of zoning is, historically, it has been used to keep certain groups of people out of certain geographic areas.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#622

Post by secondcoming » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:10 PM UTC

kurthr wrote: post #575

rpearl wrote: post #555

Nobody really brings up that the bay area is one of few places in the US where you can live without a car. Really, even compared to other "walkable" cities beyond a select few, similarly expensive places. Nobody really brings up that the bay area has better LGBT and other minority protections than anywhere in the US, either. Every time someone mentions cheap midwest cities I have to pull up https://crossingenres.com/…

Some people don't care about those things, but do care about how big their house is, how many cars fit in the garage, and how much they (and their kids) look like the people (and schools) around them. To be fair when I was living "rural", I loved being only 45min from a 24hr Walmart, and I've lived as a minority, which doesn't feel great so I get going back from whence you came. But I'm still going to say, what you d…

> I loved being only 45min from a 24hr Walmart

Perhaps I'm misreading you, but having to drive 45mins to get to a shop seems like a massive inconvenience!

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#623

Post by skrtskrt » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

throwaway201103 wrote: post #599

nus07 wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree on almost all of your points with a few caveats. - Cars : The Bay Area is very walkable but that’s mainly SF. The tech burbs of Palo Alto , Menlo Park are not super walkable and you are relying on the BART and other public transport . But Covid has destroyed public transport and cuts in funding threaten them further. LGBT : This is not really the 80s and 90s . Most big cities from DC, Atlanta, Austin ,Chicago…

Can't speak for other cities, and maybe not even Chicago today, but when I lived there, there was a lot of diversity in the loop (the downtown business district) during the workday, but beyond that it was a very segregated city. Also, though I did own a car, I really only used it on weekend trips out of town. If I had stayed long-term, I would have sold it, because it's expensive to own one there (parking is expensiv…

Chicago is pretty segregated, but the transit situation is easily the best of any major US city. A car helps you get places quicker, but an adventurous person can get all over the city easily on the buses and trains and any given neighborhood is very walkable.

The main issue is the cold. You have 3 months of amazing summer and 8 months of cold with two weeks of spring and fall on either end. If you're not from the Midwest, it can really wear on you and bring you down.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#624

Post by rcpt » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

hn_user82179 wrote: post #616

spamizbad wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chicago and NYC do car-free better than the Bay Area, where not owning a car is really only viable in SF and a few small surrounding communities.

SF has a phenomenal climate though in comparison. The public transportation is lacking but I mind walking or bike a lot less in SF winters as opposed to NYC winters.

I biked to work nearly every day in NYC. The weather really isn't that bad.

And in NYC if ever I had some other obligation after work instead of my usual commute that was bikeable to. In California nearly every time an errand popped up I couldn't bike that day.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#625

Post by hbosch » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

rpearl wrote: post #555

Nobody really brings up that the bay area is one of few places in the US where you can live without a car. Really, even compared to other "walkable" cities beyond a select few, similarly expensive places. Nobody really brings up that the bay area has better LGBT and other minority protections than anywhere in the US, either. Every time someone mentions cheap midwest cities I have to pull up https://crossingenres.com/…

I had a whole long thing typed out. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt instead, and assume you didn't mean to generalize suburbs and exurbs as racist and homophobic, artless, desolate and uncivilized places.

I live in a quaint little town by the water, a decent drive away from a major city. I'm a tech worker that chose to move, because city perks didn't outweigh the city stress.

I would say that for anyone considering the change, think about what you want out of your everyday life and move wherever gives you that. Do not lock yourself into an expensive city because it has something that you don't see yourself enjoying every day. In my town, I can walk with my daughter to a local beach that has zero tourists. I have a garden, and a detached home office, and a garage wood shop, and two cars (one for hauling family, one for hauling lumber). I live close to my suburban in-laws, who get great joy out of seeing their grandkids on the weekend. Those are things that no major city in the world could give me, reasonably, and are the reasons why I would never move back.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#626

Post by nrmitchi » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

bcheung wrote: post #517

nrmitchi wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not state one way or the other in my comment about whether it was right or wrong, and frankly my opinion on that topic is not of importance to my point here. I stated that it seems clear that these people are moving way from temporary restrictions (by relocating to places that do not have the same restrictions), and that there is no guarantee that any of these will be 'permanent' moves after those restrictions…

It's certainly a factor, but "temporary" concerns are probably not significant enough to cause people to move. Moving is a big ordeal unless you are young and can pack everything you own into a car.

This article, and my comment, are discussion insanely wealthy individuals who have co-founded, led, or exited from very large companies (Splunk, Palantir, Opendoor, Dropbox, etc), or run VC firms.

Moving is much less of a big deal when your primary residence is a minuscule portion of your net worth and you are almost definitely paying someone else to handle all of the logistics of a move.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#627

Post by corytheboyd » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:15 PM UTC

cobbzilla wrote: post #568

carapace wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's some of that, but you gotta wonder why the Outer Sunset isn't coated in luxury condos? I think it's just that SF is very young, as cities go, and it's been the oddball city, you didn't move here in the past for a good job, you came here because you were weird, or queer, and wanted a place to fit in and be welcomed. All these normal folks with great jobs moving here is very new, 20-25 years at most.

> why the Outer Sunset isn't coated in luxury condos? Because the Outer Sunset is cold, foggy and windy a lot of the time? Are the luxury condos are still going up in SOMA? It's definitely warmer there.

There are tons and tons of luxury condos, new and those under construction. A lot of the ones I have seen are in rincon hill (aka east cut after salesforce took over), mission bay, and dogpatch. Can’t speak for SoMa as much as I don’t visit it too often anymore

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#628

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:15 PM UTC

scelerat wrote: post #332

sandworm101 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> and still come out ahead financially. Ya. Earning a SF wage but living elsewhere is great. But there is a flip side to this coin. As employees realize they can work from home, employers also realize they can have employees work from home. They will soon realize they don't need to pay SF wages. Those who convert their in-office jobs into work-from-home are a covid oddity. Those who will be hired in the future on th…

The SF-based company I work for has already announced wage adjustments for employees who relocate out of the region. They haven't happened yet, but the company has given everyone a "heads up; it's on the table."

My company of about 4000 people ran the numbers after the dust settled from transitioning to remote work, and determined that we're about 30% less productive. This was deemed acceptable, and we've been hiring to close that gap.

It would not surprise me at all if companies became more open to hiring remote employees, but started paying them 20% - 30% less, and extended the offer to transition to WFH (with a salary adjustment) for existing employees as well.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#629

Post by uoaei » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:15 PM UTC

ianmobbs wrote: post #574

philwelch wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some point the basic maintenance of law and order (or conversely the refusal to do so) takes precedence over walkability or the local art and culture scene. As for tolerance, West Coast cities are rapidly developing a social and political milieu that is openly hostile towards the tech industry to a much greater degree than Austin or Miami (to name two examples from the article) are hostile to LGBT people.

Are you really saying that it's harder to be a techie than LGBT in San Francisco?

Victimization narratives are intoxicating. A lack of diversity in experiences will lead some down narrow paths.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#630

Post by whoisburbansky » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 10:15 PM UTC

somethoughts wrote: post #557

pvarangot wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think SVs appeal is that you can leave in a quiet suburb close to a lot of easily accessible nature, while still having Amazon 2-day shipping, ridesharing, Uber Eats, and luxury retail. There's not many places in the US like this. Europe has a lot but there's not much tech jobs in them. You are also close to SF if you like the madness of the city every once in a while. Other suburby places with nature easily access…

I think the last unspoken one and perhaps most important one in this list is access to family in the APAC region. The other proposals (i.e. Colorado, Arizona, etc.) have all the other stuff but not the access to Asia. Looking at air travel - Denver to India or Austin to China - everything is a 1 day+ and over $2000+. SF/LA to these places is about 15 hours and about $1500. If the business (i.e. Apple/Google making ph…

I'm seeing economy flights round trip from Colorado to Delhi at 1300, rounding up, for Christmas week. Don't really know how much this is due to Covid-related drop in demand, but it seems like a useful data point to put out there, since I've definitely seen similarly priced flights during non-pandemic years.