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Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#621

Post by mcguire »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #589
james-mcelwain wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, "Basic economics/psychology informs" does not constitute empirical proof that UHC leads to decreased "innovation" (which is a weasel word in itself). Second, even if we granted the premise that UHC leads to less healthcare innovation, this doesn't mean that there's "infinite harm" in to people in the future. Unless you're claiming you have a crystal ball, there is absolute 0 epistemic basis on which to…

>First of all, "Basic economics/psychology informs" does not constitute empirical proof that UHC leads to decreased "innovation" (which is a weasel word in itself). Either you believe humans respond to incentives or you don't. It's that simple. > Second, even if we granted the premise that UHC leads to less healthcare innovation, this doesn't mean that there's "infinite harm" in to people in the future. Unless you're…

"Either you believe humans respond to incentives or you don't. It's that simple."

Fine. I don't, at least in the simple model you present. And I hae 40 years of behavioral economics to point to.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#622

Post by gamblor956 »

Negitivefrags wrote: post #512
Supermancho wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That way the user gets their driver faster. How is that relevant? If you are an agency, you are advertising availability both ways. If you filter on behavior, you are no longer acting as an independent agency but as an agent for one side. Disclosing pattern behavior (has rejected 12 rides this hour) is the correct way to provide value-add, not silently making decisions for parties.

If you went to a recruitment agency, would you expect them to send you to interview at every single company regardless of if they think that the company would be interested in hiring you? Clearly agencies do discriminate who they match with each other. I would say that is the entire point of agencies infact.

Crucial difference: recruitment agency matches based on criteria that customer and contractor provide, because they work for both as an agent.

Agencies don't match based on their own internal criteria. That would recharacterize the relationship between the agency and the contractor, flipping it around so that the contractor becomes their agent.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#623

Post by mcguire »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #430
shanhaiguan wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that your claim of infinite harm is based on the idea that the future is infinite. If the current subpar healthcare situation continues indefinitely, is the harm that it inflicts on its victims not also infinite? Is the benefit provided from removing this source of harm not also infinite? Then by your own reasoning, the question is not nearly as simple as infinite > finite. Being in favour of single-payer, I…

Cheap healthcare advances at the same rate as expensive healthcare, it just lags some years. That's why Walmart famously has dozens of prescriptions it can offer at a price of only $4/mo. Those drugs were once very expensive and were only available to the relatively wealthy.

Once upon a time, I bought my expensive asthma inhalers from Walmart because it's the most convenient pharmacy. Then they stopped carrying it. In fact, every one did. The manufacturer's patent ran out and they stopped making it. It was several years before the drug came back on the market by which time I had moved on to another expensive inhaler.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#624

Post by yibg »

coldpie wrote: post #560
yibg wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've lost me now. You've gone between multiple topics and I don't really understand what your stance is. Are you saying: - There should be a limit on number of hours worked (regardless of type of employment). - Everyone should be an employee, and not a freelancer or otherwise independently employed - Everyone should get benefits Or all 3? Those are all to me at least independent things. You can have work hour limit…

> - Everyone should get benefits Yes. > - There should be a limit on number of hours worked (regardless of type of employment). I'm not getting into the specifics, my point is everyone should get the worker protections we have developed over the decades. If that includes mandatory time off, great, but it doesn't have to. I pointed to France's model as one potential example of how it might apply to non-employees like…

What about small business owners? If I open a restaurant I can only work 8 hours a day 5 days a week? I need to take 3 weeks off a year?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#625

Post by deminature »

omot wrote: post #314

What really irks me about this whole thing is how Uber Eats and Door Dash is unaffected by all this. Delivery workers have almost exactly the same paradigm, but I guess they're not enforcing it, because of the number of restaurants, drivers, and eaters that will be affected?

They are being affected, just not as publicly as the transportation example https://www.ktvu.com/news/sf-d-a-chesa-boudin-takes-action-t...

What is particularly egregious is how traditional taxis are being ignored, despite having most of the same labor problems as app-based transportation services.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#626

Post by eloff »

gwd wrote: post #535
xapata wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had taxi drivers yell at me for how close I lived to the airport. Angrily banging the steering wheel. "I waited in line for 2 hours and I get this fucking fare!?" Then they drive maniacally fast, weaving through traffic hoping to catch the tail end of passengers disembarking my flight. Mildly terrifying. Uber and Lyft were so welcome.

But that's partly because, in all likelihood, the taxi driver also couldn't set their own rates. If that taxi driver could have asked $20 instead of the $3.75 legally mandated by the meter, would you have paid it? It seems like allowing a proper market, where both riders and drivers could bid on rides, would solve both this problem and the SuperShuttle problem.

Taxis work like this in Panama. Prices vary wildly ( but are low by developed world standards) and trying to get across town in times of high traffic is nearly impossible, nobody will take you ( they ask you where you're going, snort and drive away) until you offer at least four times the standard fare.

They're also unsafe, my brother was robbed at gunpoint by a fake taxi. I've heard multiple women who had to jump from a moving taxi to escape a potential rape.

Uber is more expensive in Panama, but I use it nearly exclusively.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#627

Post by deaddodo »

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

> I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market.

Because, that's not the argument. The argument is the precedent it sets. We've seen companies utilize weak independent contractor regulations in the past to take advantage of individuals (most specifically, the Dynamex case that lead directly to this), despite many of them not knowing/not complaining. This is why California is so hard on independent contractors. I would prefer a state strong on worker's rights than vice versa.

> From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving so I really don't buy the exploitation argument.

Your anecdotes don't mean anything, sorry. We have vast evidence that companies will take advantage of worker's in an independent contractor situation to their benefit. We have evidence that Uber had requirements in it's worker interactions (route penalties, hour requirements, etc) that do not fit independent contractor ideals.

> Seems like a loss for everyone except bureaucrats.

The bureacrats gain nothing.

> Also don't see how it's realistic to expect them to be able to adjust to this on a dime.

I can only assume you don't live in California. This isn't on a dime. They were notified over three years ago. The FTB and legislature have been on them about it constantly. The law was introduced in 2018-12-03 and signed into law on 2019-09-18. I know operations can be slow, but two years should be plenty of time, considering how fast they were able to adjust to failing markets like Germany that they ultimately lost anyways.

> Although large, California is still a minority of their revenue.

It makes up 16% of Lyft and Uber's users. It has the highest valued rides, lowest effective overhead (driver retention, driver acquisition, passenger acquisition) and most effective mileage.

But you're right, they should give up their most established and profitable market or California should shut up. Because you talked to some people.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#628

Post by ccktlmazeltov »

ram_rar wrote: post #80
ccktlmazeltov wrote: post #71

This is all a shit show because the infrastructures in place are currently doomed for the market to succeed: - no healthcare means you're a slave of whatever you can find, - tipping culture means your employer can pay you shit

+1 for tipping culture. I just dont get it, why can employers pay their fair share, instead of expecting customers to foot the bill.

Just don't tip, you're contributing to the problem if you do

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#629

Post by ccktlmazeltov »

ksdale wrote: post #130
ram_rar wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 for tipping culture. I just dont get it, why can employers pay their fair share, instead of expecting customers to foot the bill.

I wouldn't mind at all if tipping culture disappeared, but I think it's naive to think that costs wouldn't go up dramatically for customers. Customers are footing the bill one way or another, it's just a matter of whether we're willing to pay enough to ensure everyone gets a livable wage.

so you're saying you're hopping that tipping goes away like that you can save by not tipping and letting other people tip? Sounds good to me!

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#630

Post by ccktlmazeltov »

pixelatedindex wrote: post #374
ram_rar wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 for tipping culture. I just dont get it, why can employers pay their fair share, instead of expecting customers to foot the bill.

I'm on the same boat. But if you're living in America, you tip. Several projects have been undertaken over the years to try to eliminate it but time and time again it's failed. https://www.grubstreet.com/2018/12/restaurant-tipping-return... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/dining/danny-meyer-no-tip... https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/05/15/478096516/wh... Sad, but true.

nope, it's not mandatory to tip, I never tip
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