Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#611

Post by switch007 » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 11:17 PM UTC

native_samples wrote: post #578

Krasnol wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a paper recently circulating the media which shows the immense amount of "esoteric" people in German speaking countries. Those people are responsible for the staggering vaccination numbers and spreading of conspiracy myths around this crisis. It's so prevalent, I can't remember anyone who at least once spread some unscientific bullshit in the last 2 years here. The handling of those people in the media and…

The problem with this claim is that vaccine fanatics spread vast amounts of misinformation themselves, and often rely on it for their core arguments. Just in this thread alone, we can find people saying: 1. Vaccines would let us wipe out COVID (wrong). 2. Even harsher lockdowns would let us wipe out COVID (wrong). 3. Vaccines stop people transmitting it (wrong). 4. Vaccinated people don't end up in ICU with COVID (wr…

Excellent list!

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#612

Post by prohobo » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 11:17 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #601

chippy wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its worth remembering that division is due to the other side always . This is an absolute statement as division is literally caused by dividing between "sides". You get a divided country when the people within it divides each other into sides. Its never been the case when people have said "our side has caused the division". never. That is the irony you should be finding! If you do finally see this irony you might fin…

If 70% want one thing and 30% want another, it doesn't matter who "caused" the division; in a democratic society you should be doing the thing that 70% of the people want. Except! And this is a big "except": when doing the thing the majority wants would violate the civil rights of the minority. The problem (in the US, at least; I can't speak for Germany) is that the minority is trying to paint vaccination as a civil…

It's not exactly hypocritical because we know that the Covid vaccines were both rushed and lied about. We still don't have full transparency about them, and the companies that made them are trying to make it as opaque as possible.

What most people expect is a vaccine that works as it was said it would, and isn't in a quagmire of censorship and profiteering. I think those are very real concerns that have not, and will not be addressed - and so, you will never get everyone on board.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#613

Post by 9dev » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 11:18 PM UTC

stormking wrote: post #574

timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

I don't understand this line of thinking. Voluntarily taking the shot yourself is completely different from making a "majority decision". Off course I got vaccinated, but I'm totally opposed to forcing it on people. It is absolutely crazy how easy it was for our incompetent politicians to blame people WHO ARE NOT EVEN BREAKING ANY LAWS for their own disastrous communication (just remember those "mask are actually bad…

> They constantly lied to us on every step of the way and now they're surprised that some people don't trust them?

I’m sorry to say this but that is just plain populist. I do agree that pandemic management surely wasn’t optimal, but insinuating malice is simply misplaced. The situation was chaotic because a pandemic is chaotic. Lots of federal offices that are known for being low-intensity workplaces - such as public health offices - suddenly had more work due than in the last 40 years combined. Politicians without any experience in managing world-scale catastrophes had to perform, often 80+ hours per week. International supply chains collapsed, decades of ridiculous IT politics started showing. Due to Germany‘s federalism, states had way too much sovereignty for way too long into the crisis. Public health institutions, healthcare professionals, Pharma companies - all had different opinions on what might be the best next step. Masks were not going to be deliverable in the quantities required to provide for the entire population. At some point, a decision had to be made to reserve contingencies for hospitals.

Solutions to all these problems may be obvious in hindsight, but I ask for a little respect to all the people that had to find them in a dynamic, completely unknown environment. Lots of things went smooth as fuck, you just didn’t notice because you took them for granted. We’re talking about humans after all.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#614

Post by willnz » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 11:18 PM UTC

timdaub wrote: post #399

worik wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

No, it's not totalitarian. In Germany we have a constitution that protects all human's right equally. If there's good reasons why you can't receive a vaccination, I'm pretty sure nobody can force you. Not even the state. Go to your doctor to get an attest that exempts you from the mandatory vaccination. Nothing easier than that in Germany. And again: You are just speculating. Nobody knows if a vaccine mandate leaves…

> In Germany we have a constitution that protects all human's right equally. If there's good reasons why you can't receive a vaccination, I'm pretty sure nobody can force you.

I've received lots of vaccinations in my lifetime, but I ask the question, who decides what the "good reason" is for vaccinating every eligible human?

We know the Covid vaccines aren't 100% effective in stopping spread, or getting ill, but for the sake of argument, let's assume the vaccines are 100% safe and effective.

The reason I don't think it should be mandated is because it sets a precedent for future mandates where the political climate may be different.

Everyone should have the right to choose what happens to their body. Unfortunately that may mean people make stupid decisions (forgoing life-saving treatment, or possibly even making others sick), it's infuriating at times, but the alternative is far worse.

The same argument applies to free speech and personal privacy. Taking away those rights, for what most would say is "obviously the right thing to do" may be all well and good in today's political climate. But it sets a precedent for the future, in which the political climate may be a lot different.

Obviously, this is just my opinion :)

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#615

Post by jasonhansel » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 11:18 PM UTC

UnpossibleJim wrote: post #540

jasonhansel wrote: post #461

Good. Here's hoping the US follows suit. Thankfully the Supreme Court has already settled the constitutionality issue: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449224/

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality This is "A law that authorizes mandatory vaccination during an epidemic of a lethal disease". Now, I'm vaccinated and support vaccination (though, I'm on the fence about forced vaccination - though I do think it can be a fire-able offense, if you can't telecommute). However, does 1.6% reach the bar of a "sufficiently lethal" disease, especially now that our medical system ha…

Keep in mind: chickenpox is almost never lethal, and many school districts already require the chickenpox vaccine.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#616

Post by rafaelero » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 11:18 PM UTC

It's fairly ironic how the demographics of antivaxxers (mostly right-wingers) are very keen to patriotic duties (and will probably recruit you to war when time comes), but couldn't even take a vaccine to attenuate a pandemy. That will be remembered.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#617

Post by somewhereoutth » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 11:18 PM UTC

EricE wrote: post #551

worik wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

> Let's make this virus extinct. Here's the core problem - unrealistic expectations. Even the CDC has backed off from the whole "make the virus extinct" mantra; they haven't spouted it for over a year now. Which is a good thing - it was utterly ridiculous from day one. This virus isn't going away. It is carried by animals. You going to vaccinate every animal that we all come in contact with? Ha! You are not going to…

> no reported hospitalisations

There are lots of hospitalisations, they are ramping up drastically. See SA regional hospital data.

> totally unsurprising to anyone familiar with viruses

Actually no human virus has ever evolved through selection pressure to become less virulent. This is just a (convenient to the deniers) myth.

Lab leak is just as fanciful as it has ever been, masking advice was updated as soon as we knew better, vaccines have been proven very safe.

I am going to accept that you are commenting in good faith. I would ask you to consider your sources, your influences, and the ever rising toll of sickness and death caused not least by the kind of misinformation you are propagating.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#618

Post by tomp » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 11:18 PM UTC

Pyramus wrote: post #457

worik wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

> Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. It's an interesting question and there is lots of debate in Germany at the moment as to why. Some factors are: * Germany did very well during the pandemic so people didn't experience a Bergamo or Madrid moment * Germany has a strong esoteric / anthroposophical movement…

Your point (1) cannot be true, as Italy has barely better vaccination rate.

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#619

Post by TurkishPoptart » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 11:19 PM UTC

fileeditview wrote: post #138

fabian2k wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something like 50% of the people in intensive care for COVID still die. Even if we were able to handle the load on the healthcare system, that still would be a very large amount of unnecessary suffering and death. And even though there are some fundamental issues with working conditions and pay in this area, fixing them would not be enough to be able to handle the load that an exponentially growing viral disease coul…

The argument always is that there are not enough beds for non-corona patients. More beds would certainly help. It is nonsense to vaccinate young and very healthy people, especially kids. Their risk from COVID is minimal to non-existent. Also the spread is not stopped by vaccinating. Vaccinated still spread the virus. If it is reduced is still unclear. There was a study in GB that showed the incidence numbers in vacci…

>...fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts. Host–virus interactions early in infection may shape the entire viral trajectory.

Source: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3...

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#620

Post by native_samples » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 11:19 PM UTC

arsome wrote: post #246

notjes wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our governments should have done nothing. People, doctors and clinics would have taken care of this easily. Also, it would be a good community building exercise. But no. Once the Governments stepped in, it was all lockdowns, prohibition and ban of repurpose drugs, soldiers marching through streets, 80 years of ethics preaching tossed out the window in a heart beat.

While I do feel the restrictions have been widely overzealous, to say "People, doctors and clinics would have taken care of this easily." is an absolute falsehood. The failure of the healthcare system to keep up in many places is what caused many restrictions to become a necessity in the first place.

Sorry, but what healthcare system has even tried to keep up? Instead of adding capacity and implementing targeted, fast training programmes they have been firing healthcare workers, and letting the rest get burned out. In most areas of life companies that suddenly face a surge in demand would come up with dozens of creative ways of meeting that demand - instead, governments enforced lockdowns which pushed hospitals deep into the red.

Just today there is a story about how the NHS in the UK bought all the private sector health care capacity at the start of the pandemic, and then didn't actually use any of it!

https://unherd.com/thepost/the-nhs-covid-beds-that-were-neve...

In neighbouring Switzerland the healthcare system did in fact add lots of emergency ICU capacity in March 2020. They spent the next 1.5 years getting rid of it again because it wasn't necessary. Look at their dashboard to see this.

Healthcare management is the failure nobody dare name in all this. They've had 18 months to find ways to add capacity, for a disease with no cure and that doesn't even require surgery. Instead they expect all of society to become slaves to the god of hospital beds.