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Fidel Castro has died

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Re: Fidel Castro has died

#611

Post by eli_gottlieb »

cloverich wrote: post #491
dorfsmay wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the communist rhetoric is that complete free speech is not good. But before judging that aspect of communism, remember that it's other type of regime apply the same restrictions, and indeed communism was illegal in the U.S. at some point.

When I first started learning about communism (college really) I went in thinking this. But I recall eventually thinking that if the mantra of communist revolution was a forceful overthrow of existing government -- by definition not the will of the (majority) people - then a ban on the parties (public) existence was justified. Do you agree with the premise and if so does it affect the equality of your comparison at a…

>But I recall eventually thinking that if the mantra of communist revolution was a forceful overthrow of existing government -- by definition not the will of the (majority) people - then a ban on the parties (public) existence was justified. Do you agree with the premise and if so does it affect the equality of your comparison at all (the free speech restrictions)?

Depends. Is your country trying to restrict even democratic socialists, respectful of human rights, from operating openly? Does your country use infiltration and assassination to grind its Left into dust? If so, you may just have to deal with the tankie communists.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#612

Post by krmboya »

erokar wrote: post #365
jknoepfler wrote: post #119

I would encourage the commenters in this thread who see Fidel's legacy as a black-and-white matter of an "evil dictator who did bad things and was wrong about economics" to step back, bear witness to the objective facts about Fidel Castro's life ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro ), think sincerely about what could lead a highly intelligent and charismatic person to become or follow Fidel Castro (as many ha…

On the contrary, it's dangerous not to call out evil for what it is. Of course it might be wise to try to analyze what genetic/family/social/economic/political factors shape people like Castro, Gaddafi, Franco etc. — but if you think you're dealing with people like you and me you fail to grasp the phenomenon. Dictators that prosecute and murder their opponents, like Castro did, share a very predictable set of psychop…

This makes me wonder of what one would say of the faceless individuals that worked behind certain governments to indirectly cause death and suffering of millions of people, say in a place like Africa.

Like the well-known western government(s) that deliberately destabilized The Congo early in its independence and installed a dictator, because they did not like the ideological leanings of whoever was in power then? A conflict that still continues 56 years later?

But then it becomes hard to pick out a specific person and say how evil they are, and how they're different from me and you.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#613

Post by sooheon »

edblarney wrote: post #392
rukuu001 wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to call out evil acts, but 'evil' is also a label that categorizes people. Labels and categories can be a deterrent to critical thinking. This is dangerous when genuinely evil people apply the label 'evil' to people they wish to persecute.

Ok, ok. Especially for locking his people in a prison island - an act which can't remotely be defended as 'in the interest of the people or socialism' or any progressive cause ... Fidel - borderline evil. Somewhat nuanced. Definitely bad. Not as bad a Hitler. There you go.

> locking his people in a prison island...

Oh the irony. Gitmo is in Cuba too :)

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#614

Post by CalChris »

tehwebguy wrote: post #457
CalChris wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Castro just doesn't belong in that sentence. Hitler does. Why does the Right Wing have such a love affair with Putin and such a hatred for Castro?

Maybe some of us have distant relatives that died in Castro's prisons for the crime of dissent?

Something that also happened with Batista. Something that happens with Putin.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#615

Post by dajohnson89 »

theparanoid wrote: post #199
pmarreck wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there's no way that a Communist dictatorship would ever lie about that.

Cuba scores well on a number of health indicators. Another latin american country, Mexico, also has high life expectancy (77yrs).

iirc, Cuba's health success is due to its socialized health care.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#616

Post by eli_gottlieb »

cloverich wrote: post #508
Pica_soO wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No Sir, nobody is denying that he was evil. Its just that we want to see the whole black and white picture he was the darkest dot of. Neither was Rafidel Baticastro in any way special - he was just another human, using the chances that life presented him- and many of those for selfish reasons, like we all would. The Dynamics of revolution and upheaval could have swept anybody ruthless enough to the top. What the ruth…

> but if we dont find out what made him possible and prevent society from sliding into that direction again- your family suffered for nothing I think most people believe we already know. Suffering --> Revolution --> Dictatorship is a very common pattern. I think there is a lot to learn from the circumstances and based on the histories I've read of e.g. WWII germany, that feels like the general focus. I think its popu…

>I think most people believe we already know. Suffering --> Revolution --> Dictatorship is a very common pattern.

Then why have people been allowing the upper classes in almost every developed and developing country to grind down the common people with suffering? How are we allowing the 1930s to happen over again if we've learned our lesson?

Franklin Roosevelt is turning in his damn grave these days. Every attempt he made to moderate the horrors of capitalism so as to avoid the worse horrors of totalitarianism is being rolled back! This must not be allowed!

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#617

Post by IslaDeEncanta »

GunboatDiplomat wrote: post #430
IslaDeEncanta wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cuba is not a dictatorship. It's a democracy with extremely localized control.

And Venezuela is a paradise on earth!

Have you ever read anything about Cuban democracy besides the propaganda put out by the US government? If you're actually interested in educating yourself, there's an interesting sociology paper called Representative Government in Socialist Cuba.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#618

Post by IslaDeEncanta »

nec4b wrote: post #525
IslaDeEncanta wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia still has not regained the standard of living that existed during the USSR.

You mean the times when they were standing in line for toilet paper and bread or the times when millions of Ukrainians died from hunger.

Oh right, and the United States has never had poverty.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#619

Post by IslaDeEncanta »

varjag wrote: post #328
crdoconnor wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try working on minimum wage in London.

There are legal, efficient ways out of poverty in the UK. There are none on Cuba.

Cubans do not live in poverty. There are neither rich nor poor. And if you think there's an "efficient" way to escape poverty in the UK, you've never been poor.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#620

Post by daptaq »

hal9000xp wrote: post #288
aikah wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a Russian, who was born in USSR, I regret that CIA has failed to assassinate him 50 years ago. Your problem is thinking that covered operations make the world better. It obviously didn't work in Iran, Vietnam, Cambodia, Congo, Argentina, Venezuela, Colombia, Bolivia and many others countries. In fact it made the situation worse in most cases.

Because just topping dictator is not enough , you also have to manage coup and support right side (i.e. those who are in favour democracy, secularism and market economy). US sucks at finding and supporting right side . If US just assassinated Castro but did nothing else communist regime won't fall, it can even gain stronger support from masses . The coup should be well prepared and US should feel responsibility about…

>US sucks at finding and supporting right side.

No, they do a perfect job at finding the right side. They always install, whatever is best for them, ie. American Corporations.

The US does not care about human rights, it's all just used to legitimize their position. Capitalism has no conscious, it ONLY does what is most profitable, whatever it might be. What should they gain by having a democracy somewhere else? "Free Markets", is another topic. The US loves those, especially if their companies can expand their "market" or, even better, use the locals to produce under inhuman circumstances.

Considering that, I believe the US is a "great" imperialist power, and really good at choosing their puppets. What a pity those "stupid cubans", didn't give the US a second chance to exploit them under a different puppet. It would have been a lot better.

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