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End of Japanese community

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Re: End of Japanese community

#601

Post by tremon »

crazygringo wrote: post #31
jahsome wrote: post #10

I'm not really able to understand the finer details but I think I picked up enough to get the broad strokes. Really though, all I needed to see was the phrase "jump on a quick call" to form an irrationally strong opinion. That phrase instantly warms my entire body with rage.

Why? It seems like someone who has no awareness of the problem, who wants to learn more about the problem, and the fastest way for both parties is over the phone ASAP rather than through a bunch of emails. When software goes wrong, you need as much information as possible to figure it how to fix it.

A person who has no awareness of the problem should not be the first responder in cases like this, that's just a recipe for further escalation.

Re: End of Japanese community

#602

Post by elric »

ErigmolCt wrote: post #555
kstenerud wrote: post #369

I know that everyone has already given their opinions about what kinds of people are involved and their motivations, but this is really about two fallible humans, one listing grievances and another asking to open a communication channel. That's it. Anything else you read into this is going to be fraught with your own coloring based on a hundred words written in text (a notoriously difficult medium to establish emotio…

Text is a terrible medium for conflict resolution

Given the language barrier, it is likely the best medium available.

Re: End of Japanese community

#603

Post by joseda-hg »

OvbiousError wrote: post #436
denkmoon wrote: post #250

Ladybird and other browser alternatives cannot come fast enough. Every other week we've got a thread here about some stupid move Mozilla have made, I can't remember the last time I heard positive news about Mozilla.

There is a very loud part of HN that strongly dislikes mozilla/firefox. It's disproportionate imo, I don't understand why they're singled out so often.

This feels like asking why do English people have strong opinions on soccer compared to the US?

If there ever was a comunity I'd expect to have strong opinions on Mozilla/Firefox, it's HackerNews

Re: End of Japanese community

#604

Post by ploxiln »

kstenerud wrote: post #369

I know that everyone has already given their opinions about what kinds of people are involved and their motivations, but this is really about two fallible humans, one listing grievances and another asking to open a communication channel. That's it. Anything else you read into this is going to be fraught with your own coloring based on a hundred words written in text (a notoriously difficult medium to establish emotio…

The grievances were rather detailed and concise. The communication channel is right there already. The relevant Mozilla employee should have responded with a detailed and concise explanation, of either why the translator is wrong, or why mozilla messed up and how they will fix it. They should post for public and historical record.

But instead, they asked to "hop on a call" which really grinds my gears, I've been asked this a few times in similar situations before. I guess there's two people here: the engineers who really hate this tactic, and the managers who - well, this is what they do. Of course it's the most reasonable thing?

Re: End of Japanese community

#605

Post by ninetyninenine »

kstenerud wrote: post #369

I know that everyone has already given their opinions about what kinds of people are involved and their motivations, but this is really about two fallible humans, one listing grievances and another asking to open a communication channel. That's it. Anything else you read into this is going to be fraught with your own coloring based on a hundred words written in text (a notoriously difficult medium to establish emotio…

Why do humans pretend this is the most sensible way to go.

You know on HN even with all these “polite” rules to make everything civil I still see shit that really just bends and goes around the rules. Example comments:

“I’m baffled at how someone can think this way.”

The tone is always performatively mild, but the intent is identical to “you’re an idiot.” Except they wrap it in this passive-aggressive intellectual concern like they’re diagnosing a malfunctioning toaster.

“I’m not sure I follow your reasoning here.” Translation: I follow it. I just think it’s bad and I want you to feel that without me explicitly saying it.

“That’s an interesting interpretation.” Translation: No one reasonable would interpret it that way, but we can both pretend I said something neutral.

“Did you maybe skip a step in your argument?” Translation: The step you skipped was ‘have a coherent thought.’

“I think you might be missing some context.” Translation: I’ll imply you’re uninformed rather than wrong. Sounds nicer.

“This has been discussed before.” Translation: Your point is outdated and you are late to the conversation everyone smarter already finished.

“I don’t think this is as profound as you think it is.” Translation: You think you’re being deep and it’s embarrassing for you.

“I suspect there may be some underlying assumptions you’re not aware of.” Translation: I will declare myself deeper and more self-aware without proving it.

And then the very popular:

“Could you provide sources for that?” Translation: I don’t need sources. I already believe you’re wrong. I just know requesting them is a socially approved way to say ‘I don’t take you seriously.’

There’s also the master-level move:

“Hmm.” Just that. Translation: I’m establishing dominance by making you explain yourself more.

⸻

None of these break “civility.” They’re engineered to never say the insult, only to induce the feeling that you should be embarrassed.

It’s polite warfare. A full linguistic economy built around implying stupidity while retaining deniability.

That’s what humans think is “sensible.” I can tell you when someone of 20 years decides to fucking quit it's because he's dealing with the above type of disrespect and the whole thing hit a crescendo.

Re: End of Japanese community

#606

Post by dsr_ »

hunter2_ wrote: post #164
alwa wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

…and, for that matter, there was an earlier draft phase where the author was R’ing For your C. And you could have jumped in then and been more-or-less welcome.

Sounds like RFC ought to be the name of that draft phase, rather than a name encompassing all phases, especially not the final phase in which C's are no longer R'd.

Historical precedent. They assigned a grad student to write up the notes; he wasn't sure he had got everything, so he titled it an RFC.

At this point, as we close in on 10,000 final-stage documents, it's better to pretend that "RFC" is just a name, not an acronym.

Re: End of Japanese community

#607

Post by behringer »

jamespo wrote: post #600
LunaSea wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gobbling up hundreds of millions of dollars to finance non-core missions and fat director bonuses while you sack the Servo development team might be a cause.

They generated that money.

Haha thats a good one.

Re: End of Japanese community

#608

Post by verytrivial »

Small meta observation: Gemini Flash 2.5 summarises this discussion as a problem with how ML was used and it's flaws, whereas Gemini Pro 2.5 emphasizes that it mainly a cultural communication problem. Both topics are here, but "fast Vs slow thought" sees different things.

Re: End of Japanese community

#609

Post by burnermore »

kstenerud wrote: post #369

I know that everyone has already given their opinions about what kinds of people are involved and their motivations, but this is really about two fallible humans, one listing grievances and another asking to open a communication channel. That's it. Anything else you read into this is going to be fraught with your own coloring based on a hundred words written in text (a notoriously difficult medium to establish emotio…

Absolute BS. This is what all these companies does. They will push something ridiculously bad on to community. Push them away. Then a public - Can we just talk it out BS. They know it's not going to happen. Even the "call" happens, it will end up with a blog post saying we tried to reach an agreement.

If you're blind to it after bizillion times. Either you are complicit or don't care.

Re: End of Japanese community

#610

Post by Merad »

glimshe wrote: post #422
bayindirh wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. English is also not my mother tongue, but this translates to "I'm sorry you feel like that, but we don't care or change anything, can I call you to convince you into doing things our way while completely being off the record?" in my mind. This is forceful and rude in my culture, but it's very rude and a no-…

This reaction baffles me and feels like online indignation culture. All I could see, as a Latin American English speaker, is someone who's sincerely trying to help and picked their words carefully. Your proposed phrasing sounds unnatural and AI-like.

As a native speaker (American) the phrasing is classic condescending soulless corporate customer service speak. 1) You must always apologize, 2) you must never admit fault. "I'm sorry you feel this way about what we did" comes across _to me_ as "what we did was totally fine, it's too bad that you don't understand the wisdom of our actions." That kind of phrasing is also a bit of a trigger because the majority of the time you hear it from companies that don't give a damn how you feel and will fight to avoid doing anything to actually help you.

It's of course impossible to say if this was just an unfortunate choice of phrasing or if it's a sign that Mozilla has become that soulless corporate entity (I say this as a Firefox user for more than 20 years).

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