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Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

nytimes.com

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#61

Post by _delirium »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #59
jpatokal wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland and Singapore aren't actually all that different here, although I'll readily admit Sg is more draconian -- eg. government permission is required for a Work Pass holder to marry a citizen! But both make it very difficult for "unskilled" people to acquire residence or citizenship. This avoids the need to provide an option for social mobility among the lowest earners by ensuring that they get shipped out to…

Switzerland doesn't import unskilled workers directly, they just get them as refuges that they accept. They do not take them in as short term residents, that would be very unswiss. (lived in Switzerland for two years)

The situation's changed post-Schengen, but Switzerland traditionally did have a guest-worker program, focused on short-term and seasonal workers who wouldn't gain any kind of rights. These were mostly from Europe, not refugees from elsewhere (the vast majority from Italy, with smaller numbers from Spain, Turkey, and Portugal). Under pressure, some were subsequently given residence rights, or (for those from EU countries) gained them later as a result of the Schengen treaty. See the section "Post-war labor migration" here: http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/switzerland-faces-com...

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#62

Post by _delirium »

yen223 wrote: post #46
CyberDildonics wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to look deeper into that. Economically Singapore has been well run, every other way is up for debate.

I believe that a strong economy will ease the transition from an autocratic society to a more liberal one. Singapore appears to be loosening up socially.

It will be difficult, because their strong economy is directly tied to the fairly non-democratic society. Its main competitive advantage are the large quantities of cheap labor it is surrounded by, which it manages very carefully with a top-down system of residence classes. A Singapore with more equal rights would be a very different one economically.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#63

Post by ersii »

jpatokal wrote: post #37
jpatokal wrote: post #29

Singapore is in for some seriously interesting times. Lee Kuan Yew did a masterful job of getting Singapore up to speed after independence, but like so many leaders over-identified with their nation, he overstayed his welcome. The Lee family's tentacles are firmly entrenched in the politics and businesses of Singapore, and while I hope they will have the common sense to tolerate the inevitable rise of the opposition…

The opinion above was formed by living in Singapore for ~8 years and continuing to take an active interest in its affairs for the next 5. You're welcome to disagree, but please tell me why then instead of just downvoting...

Do not worry when you get down votes, especially not if you do a second look at your text in a calm state and you think that it contributes.

There are times when you unfortunately will get stuck with down votes - but most times, there will be plenty of people who will read your comment even if it's grayed out - and then vote it up.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#64

Post by yen223 »

_delirium wrote: post #62
yen223 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that a strong economy will ease the transition from an autocratic society to a more liberal one. Singapore appears to be loosening up socially.

It will be difficult, because their strong economy is directly tied to the fairly non-democratic society. Its main competitive advantage are the large quantities of cheap labor it is surrounded by, which it manages very carefully with a top-down system of residence classes. A Singapore with more equal rights would be a very different one economically.

One could argue that Singapore's competitive advantage is that they can attract top talent from neighbouring countries by offering a better quality of life - which, anecdotally, is the case among my friends - in which case a Singapore with more equal rights might actually be stronger economically.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#65

Post by fx85ms »

jqgatsby wrote: post #47
lalalander wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point being? The possession of firearm is illegal in the country.

Your response and the thinking it indicates gave me a chill. You are justifying executing someone based on whether or not they broke a state law, not on whether or not they broke a moral law. Either you think firearm possession is inherently immoral (problematic but defensible position), or you think moral law and state law are equivalent (terrifying position) or you think something else that I haven't thought of. My…

> You are justifying executing someone based on whether or not they broke a state law, not on whether or not they broke a moral law.

What are these moral laws you speak of? Your opinions on what is right and what is wrong?

The cases you present for firearm possession is simply a case of false dichotomy. Firearm possession is not inherently immoral. The armies of the country would definitely need them to protect the country against others, especially for Singapore who is surrounded by hostile neighbours.

Citizen ownership of firearms, on the other hand, is a highly impractical thing. It is illegal to own firearms in the country and that is just how the laws of the countries were set up in the first place. I would not go as far as to say that owning them is immoral, but by intentionally breaking the laws of the country, what are you trying to imply?

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#66

Post by username223 »

Panoramix wrote: post #19
l10nf15h wrote: post #8

Lets not forget that Singapore executes a higher percentage of its population than any other country on earth and canes people slicing into flesh.

For what is worth, I'd rather be executed than to "live" in an American prison. The idea that solitary confinement occurs in a first world country is appalling and scary. Don't get me started on the things inmates and guards do to some people.

> For what is worth, I'd rather be executed than to "live" in an American prison.

Same. I'm not sure whether capital punishment should still be a thing, but anyone given a life sentence should have the option to choose death instead. Life in a supermax prison is deeply inhumane.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#67

Post by crdoconnor »

jpatokal wrote: post #37
jpatokal wrote: post #29

Singapore is in for some seriously interesting times. Lee Kuan Yew did a masterful job of getting Singapore up to speed after independence, but like so many leaders over-identified with their nation, he overstayed his welcome. The Lee family's tentacles are firmly entrenched in the politics and businesses of Singapore, and while I hope they will have the common sense to tolerate the inevitable rise of the opposition…

The opinion above was formed by living in Singapore for ~8 years and continuing to take an active interest in its affairs for the next 5. You're welcome to disagree, but please tell me why then instead of just downvoting...

I haven't lived here for as long as you, but I reached similar conclusions.

In addition, the idea that it was some sort of backwater place before LKY is something of a myth, along with the "no natural advantage" canard. Its strong economy grew in large part due to its strategically positioned port, which has existed since 1819. Can't really take credit for that.

That isn't to say that the country couldn't have been run into the ground in the 1960s, but they had a far larger head start than the ruling party likes to admit.

Interestingly, probably one of their most successful economic policies is one that is stridently ignored by the rest of the world:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore

San Francisco in particular could afford to take a leaf out of this book.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#68

Post by crdoconnor »

orcdork wrote: post #12
kyllo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go to Singapore and see how the immigrant laborers from South Asia live, how the native Malays live, and then how the ethnic Chinese and Western expats live. It's a highly stratified society where money makes the rules.

You could say the same thing for the UK. Yes, i do realize there are vast differences between immigration in the UK (or the west overall) and Singapore, but find that blaming class differences and/or the mistreatment of poor immigrants to policies is to simplify the issue.

>You could say the same thing for the UK.

You really can't. There's no comparison to be made between the way Singapore treats Bangladeshis and the UK treats Poles.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#69

Post by jpatokal »

ersii wrote: post #63
jpatokal wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opinion above was formed by living in Singapore for ~8 years and continuing to take an active interest in its affairs for the next 5. You're welcome to disagree, but please tell me why then instead of just downvoting...

Do not worry when you get down votes, especially not if you do a second look at your text in a calm state and you think that it contributes. There are times when you unfortunately will get stuck with down votes - but most times, there will be plenty of people who will read your comment even if it's grayed out - and then vote it up.

Not so much worried as curious -- if I'm missing something, I'd genuinely like to know!

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#70

Post by raincom »

jpatokal wrote: post #29

Singapore is in for some seriously interesting times. Lee Kuan Yew did a masterful job of getting Singapore up to speed after independence, but like so many leaders over-identified with their nation, he overstayed his welcome. The Lee family's tentacles are firmly entrenched in the politics and businesses of Singapore, and while I hope they will have the common sense to tolerate the inevitable rise of the opposition…

I am okay with a benevolent dictator. As Arrow and Sen showed that we can't talk about agrregate social interest or about the public will, it is better to have a LKY to ramp up a country.

Somehow, LKY planted all his family members in powerful roles of the government and the government run companies.

Government linked corporations (GLC) controll 60 percent of the singapore Economy. Tamasek holdings is one such. The CEO of Tamasek is the wife of the current prime minister, who is the son of LKY.

Another benevolent dictator in the making? Maybe, the elections can tell.

My friend's brother went to Singapore from India as an electrician in 2010. He was making S$550 per month, and was living in a shack somewhere in Singapore. Cheap labor imported from Malaysia, Indian, China, Thai, Burma, Phils help the government linked companies make profits. And this explains why Singapore does not have minimum wage.

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