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Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

nytimes.com

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#51

Post by seanmcdirmid »

lucaspiller wrote: post #45
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think with China weakening, it can't continue. We are probably in for a second Asian Financial Crisis in the next few years. Also, Singapore is very much like Switzerland: they have to import many/most of their workers, except whereas Switzerland focuses on the high end, they focus on both (importing Chinese bus drivers and American programmers). Its a weird mix that isn't sustainable (also, they should stop using…

Citation? I visited last year and went to a tech meetup, and other than myself and a German guy who had been living in the area for 20 years, everyone else out of 60 people was Asian. Quite a few people I spoke to were from China and said they came to the country to study. As I understand they are provided full scholarships if they stay to work for X years after completing their studies. You are right about lower cla…

Plenty of non-rich Mainland Chinese also come to Singapore for work. The ones you meet in tech aren't all of them (likewise, Singapore gets poor/rich workers from India).

At some point, a country should provide social mobility to remain healthy. Switzerland is a great example: they take refuges who many take lower-level jobs, but their children are basically Swiss and move up the ladder quickly. Singapore isn't like that.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#52

Post by seanmcdirmid »

ams6110 wrote: post #49
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes a long time to execute people in the USA. Having an execution hanging over your head for 20 years probably makes prison much, much, much worse.

Well everyone has their own death hanging over their head all the time.

Yes, but it is often not imminent until you are old enough to not care anymore. You might die tomorrow in some freak accident, but you'll live today as if you aren't going to. In this case, ignorance is bliss.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#53

Post by jpatokal »

jqgatsby wrote: post #47
lalalander wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point being? The possession of firearm is illegal in the country.

Your response and the thinking it indicates gave me a chill. You are justifying executing someone based on whether or not they broke a state law, not on whether or not they broke a moral law. Either you think firearm possession is inherently immoral (problematic but defensible position), or you think moral law and state law are equivalent (terrifying position) or you think something else that I haven't thought of. My…

While I don't disagree, it's worth noting that any minor official at any airport -- and this very much includes the US -- has very, very wide-ranging powers over non-citizens traipsing through. Sample: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar

Singaporean officials are also very keen on following the letter of the law, and in Singapore that letter happens to state that unauthorized possession of ammunition is a Very Big Deal.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#54

Post by sjwright »

l10nf15h wrote: post #32
sjwright wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was true in the 1990s, but not in the last 10 years where use of capital punishment has been consistently less than 10 persons per year, including foreign nationals (i.e. not "its population"). Conversely the USA has a much higher percentage of its population sitting in prison. I suspect many of those people would prefer a caning over the loss of many productive years of their life.

It's not meant to be a comparison. I am simply asking why most of this thread is celebrating a man that created a police state that is the model for Asia.

You made the comparison, you can't say it wasn't meant to be a comparison.

Strip away the jingoism, and I really don't see how the USA is any less of a police state than Singapore. From stop-and-frisk to civil forfeiture and the TSA, the United States is every bit a police state with just a thin outer layer of constitutional democracy.

I've lived in both countries for extended periods, and I know which I'd prefer to live in. (Though if we look at California in isolation, I might prefer that, but only for the nice weather and cheap cars.)

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#55

Post by contingencies »

Asshole's dead. Good riddance. Stole power on a platform of communism, moved to totalitarianism / familial nepotism, set up his 'wealthy, modern' state by money laundering for Burmese junta, struck up a cheap friendship with US (easy sale: naval positioning for the straits, cable taps on comms, aggressively purchasing regional comms providers in places like .au), did a PR job on .sg's great 'democracy'. His biography - Hard Truths to Keep Singapore Going - is a disgusting exercise in narcissism attempting to rewrite history. Dirty man, dirty state, dirty legacy.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#56

Post by jpatokal »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #51
lucaspiller wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation? I visited last year and went to a tech meetup, and other than myself and a German guy who had been living in the area for 20 years, everyone else out of 60 people was Asian. Quite a few people I spoke to were from China and said they came to the country to study. As I understand they are provided full scholarships if they stay to work for X years after completing their studies. You are right about lower cla…

Plenty of non-rich Mainland Chinese also come to Singapore for work. The ones you meet in tech aren't all of them (likewise, Singapore gets poor/rich workers from India). At some point, a country should provide social mobility to remain healthy. Switzerland is a great example: they take refuges who many take lower-level jobs, but their children are basically Swiss and move up the ladder quickly. Singapore isn't like…

Switzerland and Singapore aren't actually all that different here, although I'll readily admit Sg is more draconian -- eg. government permission is required for a Work Pass holder to marry a citizen!

But both make it very difficult for "unskilled" people to acquire residence or citizenship. This avoids the need to provide an option for social mobility among the lowest earners by ensuring that they get shipped out to become someone else's problem before they have kids, and some undemanding fresh meat is imported instead, because life as a maid/construction worker in Sg is still more lucrative than toiling in the fields in the Philippines/Bangladesh/etc.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#57

Post by jpatokal »

contingencies wrote: post #55

Asshole's dead. Good riddance. Stole power on a platform of communism, moved to totalitarianism / familial nepotism, set up his 'wealthy, modern' state by money laundering for Burmese junta, struck up a cheap friendship with US (easy sale: naval positioning for the straits, cable taps on comms, aggressively purchasing regional comms providers in places like .au), did a PR job on .sg's great 'democracy'. His biography…

Out of curiosity, how would you rank Singapore against its neighbors Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia?

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#58

Post by jessaustin »

sjwright wrote: post #50
refurb wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Many other countries come close to that ratio. Is there something intrinsically bad about that?

No, very few countries come close to that ratio. The poster-child for widespread gun ownership, Switzerland, still only has half as many guns per capita[0] as the US. They also have laws that prohibit most people from carrying loaded guns. The result is a gun homicide rate less than 1/5th that of the US per capita.[1] Yes, intrinsically bad. It's pretty clear to anyone who doesn't live in a gun "bubble". Number one c…

If the attempt is to understand the roots of homicide, rather than just bash one nation or another, it's more instructive to look at homicides [0], rather than homicides of a particular flavor. A careful look at that list will make it clear that elevated homicide rates are a legacy of colonization, at least as much as legal policy. Those in the Americas or Africa can't really be blamed that they were colonized by Europeans. Therefore, nations in the bottom, say, third of the table for those continents really aren't doing such a bad job.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#59

Post by seanmcdirmid »

jpatokal wrote: post #56
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of non-rich Mainland Chinese also come to Singapore for work. The ones you meet in tech aren't all of them (likewise, Singapore gets poor/rich workers from India). At some point, a country should provide social mobility to remain healthy. Switzerland is a great example: they take refuges who many take lower-level jobs, but their children are basically Swiss and move up the ladder quickly. Singapore isn't like…

Switzerland and Singapore aren't actually all that different here, although I'll readily admit Sg is more draconian -- eg. government permission is required for a Work Pass holder to marry a citizen! But both make it very difficult for "unskilled" people to acquire residence or citizenship. This avoids the need to provide an option for social mobility among the lowest earners by ensuring that they get shipped out to…

Switzerland doesn't import unskilled workers directly, they just get them as refuges that they accept. They do not take them in as short term residents, that would be very unswiss.

(lived in Switzerland for two years)

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#60

Post by contingencies »

jpatokal wrote: post #57
contingencies wrote: post #55

Asshole's dead. Good riddance. Stole power on a platform of communism, moved to totalitarianism / familial nepotism, set up his 'wealthy, modern' state by money laundering for Burmese junta, struck up a cheap friendship with US (easy sale: naval positioning for the straits, cable taps on comms, aggressively purchasing regional comms providers in places like .au), did a PR job on .sg's great 'democracy'. His biography…

Out of curiosity, how would you rank Singapore against its neighbors Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia?

Far more totalitarian.
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