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How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

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Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#61

Post by mikeash »

agentsmith wrote: post #52
Marazan wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where on earth do you get the notion that no vaccine lasts longer than 7 years? Also, how does one get the power to down vote.

Second paragraph, booster shots. Also, that CDC link is not based on science. More a combination of marketing and the effects of hygiene and nutrition. Same for the immune.org link. just vote everyone else up. same effect.

If you're going to declare that this stuff is "not based on science" it would be really helpful if you could provide some external information that is based on science, rather than just declaring it to be so.

The existence of booster shots certainly doesn't prove that no vaccine lasts more than seven years. At best it proves that those specific vaccines don't last forever. There are plenty of vaccines where you don't get booster shots though.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#62

Post by zcdziura »

stelonix wrote: post #17
skynetv2 wrote: post #3

it breaks my heart to see so many "adults" making "informed decisions" about NOT vaccinating their children. They should really go live in undeveloped countries where vaccines are scarce and unavailable to experience first hand what lack of vaccinations actually means, what the implications are for the general population. I grew up, fortunately with out any problems, seeing so many kids suffering from polio, handicap…

While I agree I'd do anything to help my child, I also realize it's not up to me or most importantly, the government to dictate how other parents should raise their children. The right to raise your child the way you see fit, obviously without any major abuse is an universal right any parent has and it's above any social construct. Abuse, in this context, should be real abuse, which means physical or psychological vi…

It is, however, the government's job to look after its citizens as a whole, and act with their best intentions. While there's always a debate to be had about whether government ACTUALLY acts for the greater good of its citizens, one area that it certainly does is mandating the vaccination of children.

These vaccines that all kids (at least in the US) are required to receive prevent some horrifying diseases. Horrifying. Like, tens of thousands of people a year would die from them (such as the Measles virus). When a viable vaccine became available for Measles, for example, people lined up around the block so they could receive it. They recognized that being vaccinated was the best thing to do, so they did it.

I absolutely hate the argument that people make about "not allowing the government to dictate how they raise their children". They're not. They're not telling you how to structure your day with your child, what books they need to read, what toys they're allowed to play with, etc. They're saying, "We don't want your child to die from these diseases, so we're going to have them vaccinated. You're welcome." Again, the government's job is to look after the well-being of ALL citizens, and preventing their widespread death falls under that jurisdiction.

As an aside, I'm not attacking you specifically. I'm attacking that argument, because it's absolutely stupid.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#63

Post by pgcudahy »

agentsmith wrote: post #37

The media is filtering out the logic from this debate. I would have hoped HN would be more informed. Its well established that no vaccine has an effect that lasts longer than seven years. This is the reason for booster shots. Every vaccine researcher and pharma company will tell you this. The reason we immunize children is because their hygiene practices are poorer than most adults and they are a marginalized class.…

"Its well established that no vaccine has an effect that lasts longer than seven years"

Wrong. Every vaccine has a different level of immunigenicity that effects how long it is protective for but some certainly last longer that seven years. Factors such as whether the vaccine is protein conjugated or has other adjuvants can determine this. This article is about measles and one study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2393239/) found that immunity lasts at least 15 years

"The reason we immunize children is because their hygiene practices are poorer than most adults and they are a marginalized class" No, we immunize children because they are often more vulnerable to disease. It is an adult parent's duty to protect them and vaccines are part of that

"For a recent example look at Ebola. Many people simply can't get it because they are too healthy. This is why ebola never went anywhere in the USA and many other countries." I don't even know where to begin. Two nurses who went to incredible lengths to wear protective gowns still contracted the virus in Texas. It was only due to a massive public health effort in keeping track of every contact that the virus was contained.

"It was known by pharma companies that the live attenuated virus would become a full strength virus in the child's stool. Look it up, I remember at least one American woman catching it from changing a diaper and it was in the news. Now we use dead virus because of people like her" There is distorting the use of the Salk live vaccine and the Sabin killed vaccine. In very high incidence areas a live vaccine is used since it is transmissible so that even without perfect vaccine coverage, the vaccine strain will spread further in the population. This does very rarely cause clinical disease but the feeling is that this is much safer than letting the wild-type strain circulate. Once a population is polio free and the wild-type strain is no longer circulating, the killed vaccine is then used to stop spread of the attenuated live vaccine. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine#Oral_vaccine)

"Vaccines are a great tool. Like any tool they should be voluntary." Would you argue that parents should also have a voluntary choice whether to place their children in car seats?

"please note that no one died" The ones at risk of dying are infants and thanks to a robust public health effort they were able to be quarantined. It would have saved a ton of time and effort if people had simply been immunized. Prior to the measles vaccine there were dozens of deaths each year to measles. No one has ever died from measles vaccine.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#64

Post by [deleted] »

gambiting wrote: post #40
stelonix wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree I'd do anything to help my child, I also realize it's not up to me or most importantly, the government to dictate how other parents should raise their children. The right to raise your child the way you see fit, obviously without any major abuse is an universal right any parent has and it's above any social construct. Abuse, in this context, should be real abuse, which means physical or psychological vi…

circumcision is absolutely child abuse and I cheer for every country that bans it.

[deleted]

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#65

Post by mikeash »

richardwhiuk wrote: post #9
k-mcgrady wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say they were less of a danger. My point was that there mistake can be excused easier due to lack of information. People who are informed about the vaccine and make the decision not to use it however cannot be excused at all as there behaviour is reckless. Attempting to point the blame at the Amish instead of the latter group doesn't seem right to me.

Aren't the Amish deliberately not vaccinated as they deliberately don't have access to the information? How is that different from someone who has access to the information but deliberately chooses to ignore it or disbelieve it?

These particular Amish are deliberately not vaccinated because of a specific incident where two children supposedly had a bad reaction to a vaccine. It's nothing to do with their access to information, and as far as I can tell nothing to do with their religion either.

I really wish people would read the article before making these assumptions. Half the people in here seem to have just seen "Amish" and leapt to the conclusion that Amish people reject vaccinations in the same way that they reject cars and computers.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#66

Post by smeyer »

click170 wrote: post #58
robert_tweed wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. And it should explain herd immunity very clearly, a bit like this demo: http://op12no2.me/toys/herd/ People need to stop believing that it's a personal choice for them alone. That is no more true than if they were to go around blowing cigarette smoke into the faces of other people. It's anti-social behaviour and even worse, the consequences are potentially deadly.

People must always have a choice to vaccinate or not, forcing it upon them will do nobody any good because it will only increase the distrust of government. That said, if you don't vaccinate, you are a threat to the public and I do think you should be banned from public schools, public transportation, public gatherings and should have to explain to anyone you physically interact with that you are a risk to them and t…

>forcing it upon them will do nobody any good

I'm not saying it would be a net good or a net bad, but it would presumably save a number of lives. This might still be a net bad with the increased distrust and loss of choice and all that, but I don't think it's at all fair to say that "nobody" would benefit. For example, those with weakened immune systems who for some reason cannot be vaccinated would probably benefit greatly. Again, I'm not saying the answer is or isn't to force them, but it's not because nobody would benefit.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#67

Post by mikeash »

herge wrote: post #26
mhurron wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who is not vaccinated and goes around in public is a danger. It doesn't matter why they aren't, the why doesn't make them more or less of a danger. They are all dangers to society.

So are smokers and people who are overweight. Your point?

Overweight people aren't really a danger to other people. Smokers aren't a danger to other people as long as they keep their smoke away from other people.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#68

Post by nsgi »

confluence wrote: post #16
palmer_eldritch wrote: post #2

At least it ends on a hopeful note: "We all took the vaccine after that. I had one shot, and I still took the other one and we had all our kids vaccinated, too. After people saw how sick people got, they changed their minds."

People used to line up for vaccines back when we first had massive distribution. The horrors of the diseases they prevented were so great the lines would go on for blocks. People are insulated from those times. When those diseases don't seem so scary anymore, people start to worry about what they're getting injected with. Teaching people about how vaccines work seems to be one solution, but another one is a horrifyin…

To play devil's advocate, just because some people used to line up for vaccines doesn't mean everyone did.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#69

Post by moogleii »

danielweber wrote: post #53
moogleii wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence, why I asked, smarty.

You also could have read the article: In the Ohio case, "patient zero" had traveled to the Philippines on a missionary trip. (In case you were wondering, he took a plane. Miller explained, "Some Amish fly. Some don't.")

Yeah, and I could have Googled it, too, but I asked here instead. But you got me. I went back to work after the section where they talk about not having a car, internet, or computer.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#70

Post by mikeyouse »

Marazan wrote: post #45
agentsmith wrote: post #37

The media is filtering out the logic from this debate. I would have hoped HN would be more informed. Its well established that no vaccine has an effect that lasts longer than seven years. This is the reason for booster shots. Every vaccine researcher and pharma company will tell you this. The reason we immunize children is because their hygiene practices are poorer than most adults and they are a marginalized class.…

Where on earth do you get the notion that no vaccine lasts longer than 7 years? Also, how does one get the power to down vote.

Per your downvote question, you need a certain amount of karma (used to be 500pts?) and the little downvote icon will appear.
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