Live data from Hacker News

How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

vox.com

41–50 of 142 posts

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't the Amish deliberately not vaccinated as they deliberately don't have access to the information? How is that different from someone who has access to the information but deliberately chooses to ignore it or disbelieve it?

Put it in perspective before you lash out. We "informed" people know car accidents are a leading cause of preventable death, and yet we kill more people with car accidents than unvaccinated non-car-driving Amish people (who are apparently swiftly adjusting their behavior re: vaccinations, which is a good thing).

The sacred rac is illustrative of people's culture blindness http://www.drabruzzi.com/sacred_rac.html

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#42
post #3

it breaks my heart to see so many "adults" making "informed decisions" about NOT vaccinating their children. They should really go live in undeveloped countries where vaccines are scarce and unavailable to experience first hand what lack of vaccinations actually means, what the implications are for the general population. I grew up, fortunately with out any problems, seeing so many kids suffering from polio, handicap…

While I agree I'd do anything to help my child, I also realize it's not up to me or most importantly, the government to dictate how other parents should raise their children. The right to raise your child the way you see fit, obviously without any major abuse is an universal right any parent has and it's above any social construct. Abuse, in this context, should be real abuse, which means physical or psychological vi…

I know this is tangential to the original conversation but it touches on something in your comment. Perhaps this will get down-voted, I don't really mind/care.

I firmly believe involuntary genital mutilation (male/female circumcision) should be outlawed. I find it barbaric that we allow male children in this country (US) to have that done and it's considered normal. If an adult wishes to have it done, then by all means go for it, but leave children the choice. This comes from someone who had it done to them and wishes it had not been done.

It's like saying, "oh, we cut off the left hand for religious reasons right after birth."

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#43

I think a lot of anti-vax stuff might be fixed with a compelling documentary. Vaccines need their own "Blackfish" documentary. Simply producing that one vivid, compelling movie is now completely changing how whales and dolphins are kept at aquariums. The power of a well produced documentary is really unbelievable. It makes sense. People are visual creatures, and natural story tellers (and listeners) so sometimes show…

I don't think top-down decrees like this works. Look at say CSICOP, Carl Sagan, etc who built out a fairly strong skeptic movement in the 80s and 90s. It didn't affect religiosity or cut down on beliefs in the paranormal. Frankly, it just comes off as a lot of paternal academics calling everyone ignorant cavemen compared to their materialistic views. It didn't come off as a labor of love for one's fellow man and as you can tell from modern skeptics and atheists, it just quickly devolves into namecalling, general rudeness, and dismissive strawmen. Neckbeards aren't exactly known for their social or persuasion skills.

So we tried that approach. What now? Maybe address this on a deeper level like better grade school and high school education. For example, we can see a lot of our public schools are unionized, which often means bad teachers and poor performers are impossible to fire. Outcomes get worse and big city high schools like in Chicago and NYC float around a 60% graduation rate. Would the left who is championing the vaccine cause be willing to go against its own unions to make schools better? I doubt it.

I really don't believe the TV tells people what to do. It often reflects whats already out there. Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey and others didn't start the anti-vax movement - it was in full swing by the time they latched onto it. Unless you're willing to do proper grassroots work, its just not going to happen. That means solutions that upset the status quo like attacking teacher unions. Or discriminating against un-vaxxed kids and not letting them go to school. I can't see the activist left doing that either. Would you be able to accept a better vaccination rate if you worked hard at it every single day, but only are planning on seeing results in 10 or 15 years? How motivated would activists, especially internet slactivists, be with a long range plan like this?

Personally, I see this as largely unstoppable. Social fads and mores follow a pendulum shift. Right now we're deep into homeopathic, anti-vaxx, etc territory. People are starting to feel the burn of it (dying kids, chronic illness, etc) and will naturally swing the pendulum back the other way once they're properly disincentized by their medical issues. Documentaries, celebrity endorsements, etc won't change a thing. This is largely a chaotic process that needs to play itself out. Its a conversation happening in every office, every daycare, every mothers group, etc and we really can't penetrate it, the same way the skeptic movement never penetrated religion or those who believe in the paranormal. If anything, belief in the paranormal has skyrocketed since Sagan's and CSICOP's loudmouth skeptic movement. Laying down the facts is only one part of trying to implement social change. I wish more people understood that.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree I'd do anything to help my child, I also realize it's not up to me or most importantly, the government to dictate how other parents should raise their children. The right to raise your child the way you see fit, obviously without any major abuse is an universal right any parent has and it's above any social construct. Abuse, in this context, should be real abuse, which means physical or psychological vi…

circumcision is absolutely child abuse and I cheer for every country that bans it.

Male circumcision actually does have health benefits when it comes to warmer countries with poorer hygiene.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#45

The media is filtering out the logic from this debate. I would have hoped HN would be more informed. Its well established that no vaccine has an effect that lasts longer than seven years. This is the reason for booster shots. Every vaccine researcher and pharma company will tell you this. The reason we immunize children is because their hygiene practices are poorer than most adults and they are a marginalized class.…

Where on earth do you get the notion that no vaccine lasts longer than 7 years?

Also, how does one get the power to down vote.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#46

The media is filtering out the logic from this debate. I would have hoped HN would be more informed. Its well established that no vaccine has an effect that lasts longer than seven years. This is the reason for booster shots. Every vaccine researcher and pharma company will tell you this. The reason we immunize children is because their hygiene practices are poorer than most adults and they are a marginalized class.…

No, vaccines do not all cease at 7 years. For those that do wear out, keep in mind that adults do not respond the same way to as children to all diseases. For example, Tetanus is bad in an adult, so we routinely take boosters for Tetanus. Adults are pretty resistant to Pertussis and don't get as bad a disease when they do get it, so it's not critical that adults get boosters for that.

You comment about hygiene is entirely misinformed. Hygiene is important for Ebola and Herpes, but not for any of the diseases we get immunizations for.

You write "People who choose not to use them are not a problem because if they were then every adult who hasn't had a vaccine in seven years is also a problem so the blame should be pretty thin." Again, that's entirely wrong. Adults, as I mentioned above, are not the carriers. Secondly, please go to Wikipedia and understand "herd immunity". It is the reason measles was eradicated in the US even though some religious minorities opted out, and also the reason measles is back not that anti-vacc nonsense has become popular.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#47
post #3

it breaks my heart to see so many "adults" making "informed decisions" about NOT vaccinating their children. They should really go live in undeveloped countries where vaccines are scarce and unavailable to experience first hand what lack of vaccinations actually means, what the implications are for the general population. I grew up, fortunately with out any problems, seeing so many kids suffering from polio, handicap…

While I agree I'd do anything to help my child, I also realize it's not up to me or most importantly, the government to dictate how other parents should raise their children. The right to raise your child the way you see fit, obviously without any major abuse is an universal right any parent has and it's above any social construct. Abuse, in this context, should be real abuse, which means physical or psychological vi…

It is also not up to government to dictate people how they should bury their dead. But if there's epidemy going on - government can and should handle the dead aproprietly to stop the epidemy.

This is common sense, really - your liberty stops where it infinges on others liberty. People not vaccinating their kids threaten others lives. Government is there to protect them.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#48

The media is filtering out the logic from this debate. I would have hoped HN would be more informed. Its well established that no vaccine has an effect that lasts longer than seven years. This is the reason for booster shots. Every vaccine researcher and pharma company will tell you this. The reason we immunize children is because their hygiene practices are poorer than most adults and they are a marginalized class.…

Your claim about no vaccine being effective past seven years is 100% nonsense. http://www.immune.org.nz/duration-protection-efficacy-and-ef...

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#49

The media is filtering out the logic from this debate. I would have hoped HN would be more informed. Its well established that no vaccine has an effect that lasts longer than seven years. This is the reason for booster shots. Every vaccine researcher and pharma company will tell you this. The reason we immunize children is because their hygiene practices are poorer than most adults and they are a marginalized class.…

> For a recent example look at Ebola. Many people simply can't get it because they are too healthy.

I can't start to grasp how wrong is this claim

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#50

The media is filtering out the logic from this debate. I would have hoped HN would be more informed. Its well established that no vaccine has an effect that lasts longer than seven years. This is the reason for booster shots. Every vaccine researcher and pharma company will tell you this. The reason we immunize children is because their hygiene practices are poorer than most adults and they are a marginalized class.…

From the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/measles/vacc-in-short.ht...):

> This replication causes the body to develop an immunity that, in 95% of children, lasts for a lifetime.

The seven years claim is clearly false. Vaccines don't work 100%, but they can grant lifelong protection.

Post reply on HN