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Dotcloud becoming Docker

blog.docker.io

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Re: Dotcloud becoming Docker

#61

Post by Myrmornis »

shykes wrote: post #54
Nrsolis wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is kinda a non-negotiable for them, isn't it? It's not like they suddenly decided to enforce the USG policy and make a big deal about it. IANAL, but it seems prudent to acknowledge that the crypto work was done in the USA and therefore falls under the export policy that ALL exportable software falls under. My company has to include this warning on its software and we even have two different versions (domestic an…

Docker maintainer here. I also hate having to put this in the README (and hate it even more each time someone from Iran offers to contribute... what a waste of talent and energy this policy creates!). But we triple-checked with our legal counsel and they confirmed it's the only way to stay unambiguously out of trouble. As un-tasteful as it is, it's better than causing unnecessary legal trouble for docker contributors…

Hi, thanks for the answer! I suppose it would be possible, without impacting the legal protection afforded by the notice, to preface the notice with some language indicating that docker would prefer it not to appear in the README, e.g. "unfortunately, due to ...". But in any case, congratulations with all the momentum you've gathered and I'm looking forward to learning more about docker here.

Re: Dotcloud becoming Docker

#62

Post by prottmann »

ddorian43 wrote: post #10

Can't a PAAS use dedicated hosting and provide a cheaper price instead of the overcriped ec2 ? (is there one?)

I found today http://modulus.io, they use different clouds. But definitly at a better price as dotcloud/nodejitsu/heroku, especially for smaller projects with SSL. Nice are the backend statistics without paying for any extra service.

But i think in the next months many new PaaS services will rise, thanks to docker ;-)

And i hope many new without amazon (amazon is not bad, but expensive).

Re: Dotcloud becoming Docker

#63

Post by merlinsbrain »

shykes wrote: post #24
jxf wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the reassurance, Andy. We've chatted a couple of times in IRC and you've always been awesome in my complicated support requests. Still, my concern isn't about the quality of the dotCloud PaaS going down -- it's pretty high already, and I don't have any plans to move immediately. Instead, I'm more concerned about the shift in general. You know as well as anyone that software that doesn't get love and care e…

Hey John, thanks for the kind words! I just wanted to add one datapoint to back Andy's response: the resource allocation to dotCloud has been the same for the last 6 months , and there is no change planned to that allocation as of today. In other words, if you were satisfied with our service over the last few weeks, you are likely to continue to be satisfied for months to come. I would worry about an exit strategy to…

Wow, its people like this (both comments from docker/dotCloud) that make you really love a service. In fact, I would have put my next side project on dotCloud if the prices weren't steep - but I get that they're for businesses and not for side projects.

I guess DO is good for that stuff (at the very least! - I'm sure they're good in general as well, I've actually been reading/discussing them a lot - mostly for hobby projects though).

EDIT: Forgot about dokku/flynn as a PaaS (plugin?). Also learned about other services in the thread which I'll be looking at.

Re: Dotcloud becoming Docker

#64

Post by merlinsbrain »

gabrtv wrote: post #51
jayd3e wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mind if I e-mail you too? My company is considering using deis for deployment in the near future.

Of course! I'm also on twitter @gabrtv or #deis on Freenode.

Service looks promising. Will definitely get you on twitter sometime!

Re: Dotcloud becoming Docker

#65

Post by druiid »

bacongobbler wrote: post #48
jxf wrote: post #9

As a user of Docker, I'm excited. But as someone who uses the dotCloud PaaS right now to run a company, I'm a little annoyed, mostly at myself for not seeing this coming. Clearly there's a diversion of resources away from the dotCloud PaaS to Docker, and that's going to have a toll somewhere. Despite the company's reassurances that everything is business as usual, I know that Docker [the project] is just too much of…

There are a couple other PaaS options as well coming in the near future. For open source options that are currently in development, there's https://flynn.io/ and http://deis.io/ . For production-ready Enterprise private PaaS (meaning that you host the PaaS on your own hardware) that are currently ready for production use, there's Stackato ( http://www.activestate.com/stackato ), OpenShift ( https://www.openshift.com/…

Candidly, Stackato is an interesting platform/fork, but I looked into your pricing before and it's not really all that reasonable. If pricing was more realistic, or there was an open-source release of your CF fork, I'd be more interested.

Re: Dotcloud becoming Docker

#66

Post by uxwtf »

shykes wrote: post #26

Hey everyone, dotCloud/Docker founder here. I just wanted to thank the HN community for your support. Your feedback - both positive and negative - has shaped Docker more than you know. I also want to confirm that, yes, the trust and satisfaction of our customers matters more to us than any amount of money. You can always make more money later, but once trust is gone, it's gone. So expect us to work ourselves to exhau…

Congrats! This pivot was really successful for the company.

Re: Dotcloud becoming Docker

#67

Post by shykes »

Myrmornis wrote: post #61
shykes wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Docker maintainer here. I also hate having to put this in the README (and hate it even more each time someone from Iran offers to contribute... what a waste of talent and energy this policy creates!). But we triple-checked with our legal counsel and they confirmed it's the only way to stay unambiguously out of trouble. As un-tasteful as it is, it's better than causing unnecessary legal trouble for docker contributors…

Hi, thanks for the answer! I suppose it would be possible, without impacting the legal protection afforded by the notice, to preface the notice with some language indicating that docker would prefer it not to appear in the README, e.g. "unfortunately, due to ...". But in any case, congratulations with all the momentum you've gathered and I'm looking forward to learning more about docker here.

That was the exact purpose of the introductory line "Brought to you courtesy of our legal counsel." :)

Coincidentally we just tweaked the language to match Apache and OpenSSL. It's pretty similar, but doesn't specifically name countries - it just refers to "whatever the rules happen to be under US regulation".

https://github.com/dotcloud/docker/commit/b48fc9657976091ff3...

Re: Dotcloud becoming Docker

#68

Post by shykes »

pbreit wrote: post #60
shykes wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on your definition of "back-burner". DotCloud might no longer be one of the most innovative PaaS, adding features left and right like it used to - but there's no reason it can't continue to be a reliable place to host your applications. DotCloud production customers want availability, performance, reliable support, good tooling, prompt bugfixes, and generous advance warning and transition support in the ev…

I actually thought "back-burner" was generous: "While Docker, Inc. will continue to offer PaaS services under the dotCloud brand, we will be devoting the vast majority of our resources towards growing Docker and the Docker ecosystem, and have fundamentally re-oriented our business model towards Docker-related products and services."

Those are not mutually exclusive :)

dotCloud is quite stable and mature, so running and maintaining it at the quality standards of our customers (including support, 24/7 ops, bug fixes, etc.) requires surprisingly little resources. Little enough that we can "devote the vast majority of our resources towards growing Docker" while continuing to offer a quality product.

My argument to support this is that we have actually been doing this for 6 months, and so far there hasn't been any kind of exodus - in fact we have many more paid customers than we had 6 months ago :)

I think this is one of the reasons the public PaaS market is difficult: at the end of the day, past the excitement of developing a new app, people will pay for a reliable service that doesn't get in their way - not for the bells and whistles. It is very difficult to differentiate a paas on features.

Re: Dotcloud becoming Docker

#69

Post by cschmidt »

shykes wrote: post #68
pbreit wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually thought "back-burner" was generous: "While Docker, Inc. will continue to offer PaaS services under the dotCloud brand, we will be devoting the vast majority of our resources towards growing Docker and the Docker ecosystem, and have fundamentally re-oriented our business model towards Docker-related products and services."

Those are not mutually exclusive :) dotCloud is quite stable and mature, so running and maintaining it at the quality standards of our customers (including support, 24/7 ops, bug fixes, etc.) requires surprisingly little resources. Little enough that we can "devote the vast majority of our resources towards growing Docker" while continuing to offer a quality product. My argument to support this is that we have actual…

The issue is really about the future. Your service is as useful today as it was yesterday or six months ago, but the perceived usefulness of your service a year from now has gone way down. We all appreciate your honesty about the pivot. But how will your customers fare in the long run?

It is kind of a strange situation. You're clearly the leader in hosted Docker PaaS at the moment. However, you're also promoting an ecosystem where all these Docker based startups are springing up, like deis.io. Why won't you be out innovating them? I fear you'll be moving down the stack, and letting others fill the PaaS role. It isn't clear to me how you're going to make money out of Docker (perhaps it isn't to you either).

I say this as someone who was going to be deploying my first Django app in a couple of weeks. I have a dotcloud account, and had messed around a little. That was my deployment plan. However, I spent tonight reading the Heroku docs. It seems at some level you realize you've lost out to Heroku, and have pivoted to this shiny thing that is getting lots of traction. That's great, and I'm sure that is the right path to take business wise. However, it doesn't sound like your current dotcloud customers will get any particular benefits from the great Docker fueled future.

Re: Dotcloud becoming Docker

#70

Post by bigiain »

jxf wrote: post #9

As a user of Docker, I'm excited. But as someone who uses the dotCloud PaaS right now to run a company, I'm a little annoyed, mostly at myself for not seeing this coming. Clearly there's a diversion of resources away from the dotCloud PaaS to Docker, and that's going to have a toll somewhere. Despite the company's reassurances that everything is business as usual, I know that Docker [the project] is just too much of…

I'm leaning very much towards a Vagrant/Ansible setup to provision/deploy/configure instances across a range of VPS providers. I'm actively testing with DigitalOcean/Linode/AWS right now, spinning up Ubuntu 12LTS and 13 instances both locally (in VirtualBox) and remotely, and it's looking very promising. It'll only get you 1,2, and 4 out of your list though – but does have the big advantage of not suffering "lockin" to any of the VPS vendors. It also gives me really easy local Vagrant/VirtualBox development, test, and A environments – with very high assurance that they're all sensible replications of the deployed environments.

If your app/service is architected to make spinning up a new 1G or 2G instance when your 512M one is running short of resources, "faking" 3 would work. I'm not sure where I'd start looking if I needed a web interface for it all though…

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