Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 85 posts

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#61

Post by foobarbazqux »

ekianjo wrote: post #46
foobarbazqux wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living inside the state, you wouldn't have those fruits if it weren't for the state. Living outside of the state, tribute of fruits is the fee for belonging to the state. If someone were truly being forced to pay US taxes, they wouldn't be able to renounce their citizenship while living outside of the state. And inside the state, it's like complaining that your parents insist you buy your brother a present with your…

> Living inside the state, you wouldn't have those fruits if it weren't for the state Nice theory but it's not even like you have a remote possibility to live outside of the State. Every country require you to BELONG to a State. You'd rather look back in History how people were actually able to survive and thrive before advanced State powers even existed. The Human Race was not born with a State and Government to dir…

Families are states. Anarchy is fascism. Violence is government. Law is force. Peace is control.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#62

Post by bsullivan01 »

cromwellian wrote: post #40
bsullivan01 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm a US citizen, but spend my whole life working in another country, should I be entitled to draw social security checks from the US? You are NOT entitled and you will NOT draw jack from Social Security--unless you paid in for at least 10 years. Then, that is your money. If you move to US and are dirt poor, I suppose you may get some state aid, medicaid etc but that's a basic right to anyone that lives there. It…

Social Security is not a savings account. Even if you paid in for 10 years, you can easily draw more than you put in.

Social Security is not a savings account. Even if you paid in for 10 years, you can easily draw more than you put in.

Or you can die while the first check is still in the mail. That's the system the Fed set up

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#63

Post by bobwaycott »

ekianjo wrote: post #45
bobwaycott wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is not.

It is. No matter how you'd like to see it. The State has no legitimacy over your life and your earnings. It did not do anything to deserve it. This misconception comes from "Monarchy by Divine Right" from Old Europe, where it was your duty before God to support your King with your earnings. It has become more and more of an extortion as the amount seized by your rulers far exceeds (in percentage) what was paid during…

Your grasp of history and political theory is lamentable. No matter how you'd like to see it.

The state has legitimacy granted to it by those who organize it and continue to live under its rule until such time as they decide to no longer recognize it, delegitimize its power, and establish a replacement state. But even when this occurs, another state is erected in its place.

Taxes have been around so much longer than Old Europe--by about 4000 years. Read some history.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#64

Post by cromwellian »

lgbr wrote: post #56
cromwellian wrote: post #23

If you want to live abroad and pay no US taxes, shouldn't one also give up rights to any entitlement services from the US government during that period? Otherwise, US tax payers are subsidizing free riders. If I'm a US citizen, but spend my whole life working in another country, should I be entitled to draw social security checks from the US? This would seem to create a moral hazard, as if you could find a tax shelte…

Generally, government retirement programs aren't really tied to citizenship. You have to have contributed to social security for a number of years to receive benefits. I'm a US citizen, but my income is German, so I will ultimately receive German retirement benefits. Living abroad, there are few benefits I'm actually entitled to. In some third world nations, if I'm arrested, then I could receive help at the embassy's…

That seems true in the general case, but not in the specific. One can still obtain SSI if you never worked a day in your life, assuming you can shelter your income to pass the means test, and then return to live in the US. It's not a very likely scenario, because if you have the wherewithal to live abroad and shelter income, the paltry SSI isn't worth the effort.

Still, it begs the question if citizens have some obligation to pay some minimum level of taxes, albeit small, for the basic services and protections one would still expect as a citizen: the right to vote, the salaries of your representatives, courts and foreign service, etc.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#65

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Afforess wrote: post #57
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are living in the USA, you are probably paying far fewer taxes (income and consumption) than people living anywhere else in the developed world, as well as much of the developing world. I'm assuming you live in China though, since you said there is no accountability, and you can't vote out public officials whose tax policies you don't like.

So because other countries take an arm and a leg in taxes, but the USA only takes an arm, we should shut up and be happy? /FlawedLogic.

Give me a good example of a developed country with generally happy citizens who pay less taxes than we do, then we can use that country as an example of how a low tax society could work without failing spectacularly. Barring that, it might be possible that the libercrazian no/low-tax country might still work; we just have no evidence and/or experience that it does.

Whenever I hear Americans complain about taxes, I play a sad song on a very tiny (invisible) violin in my hand.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#66

Post by seanmcdirmid »

gamblor956 wrote: post #44
jandrewrogers wrote: post #5

This has been the case for some time and has been getting worse year after year. It is pretty shameful the extent to which the US tries to attach itself to the income and wealth of people who are not even living in the country solely because they are American citizens. In some cases, compliance with US tax laws (even though not in the US) are in direct conflict with laws in jurisdictions where people actually reside.…

Consider the taxes (after the very generous $90+k exemption) a fee for services offered to expatriates. You may never use such services, but your fee pays to make those services available if you ever need them. The U.S. Embassy system offers world-class services to U.S. citizens with legal, medical, and (depending on the circumstances) financial problems in foreign countries. They will negotiate your release if you a…

> The U.S. Embassy system offers world-class services to U.S. citizens with ...

The embassy explicitly states that they do not offer these services.

> They will negotiate your release if you are arrested for foreign crimes.

Ha ha! You are joking right?

> They will help you reorder credit cards if you are robbed and even provide you with cash advances or a place to stay.

They MIGHT call home for you so you can get some cash. But otherwise, don't expect much from the US Embassy beyond expected services, unless your case is exceptional somehow (or maybe if you know Gary Locke personally).

The US does offer other services for our taxes; e.g. I got my PhD via NSF grants, basically, so I don't mind paying for that. And keeping the world safe via military (if you think that's a service), or even foreign aid. But its a myth that I pay any US taxes at all, because I don't, I just have to fill out that damn 1040 every year.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#67

Post by seanmcdirmid »

capisce wrote: post #55
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that you often don't get double taxed. They just want the difference between what you would pay in the USA vs. what you actually pay in country B, after $97k that is. If you are in a country with higher taxes than the states, which is most of the world actually, you won't be paying anything more (just watch out for HK, Singapore, and Switzerland).

Having to go through the form hell of filing US taxes seems like a tax in itself.

Every year I spend a couple of hours on it, and I do my taxes by hand at that. The hardest part is figuring out where to find a post office to mail the forms out. They seem to change each year (I could also drop it off at the embassy I guess, but that would require 15 or 20 more minutes to get in the front door).

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#68

Post by seanmcdirmid »

bobwaycott wrote: post #59
ekianjo wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Living inside the state, you wouldn't have those fruits if it weren't for the state Nice theory but it's not even like you have a remote possibility to live outside of the State. Every country require you to BELONG to a State. You'd rather look back in History how people were actually able to survive and thrive before advanced State powers even existed. The Human Race was not born with a State and Government to dir…

Oh please. Spare us the shitty history lesson. The state has existed in human history for more than 10,000 years. The survival and thriving of the human race prior to the establishment of states is incomparable to the last 10,000 years--except to say that they evolved, survived, and propagated the species. They did not thrive . The human race was hardly shit before it began establishing states in order to organize, c…

I wonder if there is a libertarian-minded ant somewhere wanting to rebel against their oppressive colony. States are not unique to human beings.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#69

Post by foobarbazqux »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #68
bobwaycott wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please. Spare us the shitty history lesson. The state has existed in human history for more than 10,000 years. The survival and thriving of the human race prior to the establishment of states is incomparable to the last 10,000 years--except to say that they evolved, survived, and propagated the species. They did not thrive . The human race was hardly shit before it began establishing states in order to organize, c…

I wonder if there is a libertarian-minded ant somewhere wanting to rebel against their oppressive colony. States are not unique to human beings.

The irony is that the rebel ant needs the colony in order to be a rebel.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#70

Post by BlobbleBlab »

Aloisius wrote: post #33
auctiontheory wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It became so complicated to do her tax return that she turned to professionals, at an annual cost of nearly $2,000 (£1,250), with the prospect of Fatca raising the price to $5,000. Also, fewer tax lawyers were taking on American clients, she says, and some banks were even turning away American money. I don't see any mention of tax-dodging in the paragraph above. Which part of paying $2000 (and maybe soon $5000) to fi…

See this is what I don't understand. Facta does not change tax law. It should have no bearing on the cost of having your taxes done. You already had to declare foreign bank accounts to the IRS, so really all the law is doing is getting them declared automatically. Now fewer tax lawyers certainly will raise costs, but that has nothing to do with Facta.

What it changes is that it requires (non-US) banks to keep track of which of their accounts are owned or co-owned by someone who may have a (dual) US citizenship, and may have made an error in their tax returns, or risk having some of their US assets seized. Some banks just prefer not to take the risk.

The non resident citizen tax returns can become very complicated in the situation where the non resident US citizen is married to a non resident foreigner. The tax forms don't even support this configuration - the spouse must have a social security number. The foreign spouse must then apply for a special "non resident alien" social security number, for the special purpose of being able to file taxes in a country they are not even allowed to enter without a visa.

And how exactly do you determine the value of your shared assets in dollars? Have you made capital gain every time the dollar fluctuates against the local currency? Since we bought our home, our property has dropped significantly in value in the currency we earn our wages in, but theoretically gained a bit in dollars, so how can we be sure this doesn't add up to exceed $50,000? The only way to be sure is to hire an expert figure it out for you, for several thousand $. They are now charging more for their services because of the higher risks and responsibilities involved.

The net amount we have to pay in that country one of us isn't allowed to enter without a visa has always added up to $0 because the extremely high taxes we already pay locally (50+ percent income tax, 20+ percent sales tax, 80+ percent excise tax on fuel etc) can be deducted.

Post reply on HN