Why are Americans giving up their citizenship? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#51

Post by bobwaycott » Fri, Sep 27, 2013, 7:19 AM UTC

alexmat wrote: post #19

pekk wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Payment of one's taxes is not the same as, or equivalent to, indentured servitude. Or slavery.

Not equivalent to, but certainly shares similar characteristics through coerced surrender of the fruits of one's labor.

Paying one's taxes as a citizen is not "coerced surrender of the fruits of one's labor", nor does paying one's taxes as a citizen who receives the benefits of one's government in any way share similar characteristics with indentured servitude or slavery.

Slavery was so much more than the "coerced surrender of the fruits of one's labor". And indentured servitude is a far different thing--it was a practice to enslave someone for a set term after obligating them to a debt as a means to gain free labor.

Neither of these things are in any way analogous to paying taxes. You do history, and those who suffered under these systems, a great injury by misappropriating them for ridiculous political statements.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#52

Post by nnnnnande » Fri, Sep 27, 2013, 7:19 AM UTC

wmt wrote: post #37

Frozenlock wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And war isn't murdering people? Just because something has the backing of a government doesn't change the definition of words. You can argue who is the owner of the money being taxed, but you can't say something is or isn't because it's lawful.

My ISP insists that I must allow them to steal my money on monthly basis or they would cut my Internet! Taxes are not theft, but a membership fee. Its perks are roads, fire department, schools, laws and law enforcement, protection from foreign armies and basically keeping the society together.

If you felt that your ISP didn't give you the proclaimed service, you could always cancel your subscription and sign with another ISP.

I do agree that the idea of taxation is not theft, but at what point does it become so? If you look at all those aspects that you point out, would you say that the taxes are well spent? The other issue here is that the people in question don't even live in the US, and thus don't make use of those services (and probably don't want their money to be used on foreign wars, as well. Just an educated guess).

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#53

Post by Afforess » Fri, Sep 27, 2013, 7:19 AM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #44

jandrewrogers wrote: post #5

This has been the case for some time and has been getting worse year after year. It is pretty shameful the extent to which the US tries to attach itself to the income and wealth of people who are not even living in the country solely because they are American citizens. In some cases, compliance with US tax laws (even though not in the US) are in direct conflict with laws in jurisdictions where people actually reside.…

Consider the taxes (after the very generous $90+k exemption) a fee for services offered to expatriates. You may never use such services, but your fee pays to make those services available if you ever need them. The U.S. Embassy system offers world-class services to U.S. citizens with legal, medical, and (depending on the circumstances) financial problems in foreign countries. They will negotiate your release if you a…

And hence why more people are renouncing their citizenship. The services are unwanted, the fee ridiculous.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#54

Post by sanswork » Fri, Sep 27, 2013, 7:20 AM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #44

jandrewrogers wrote: post #5

This has been the case for some time and has been getting worse year after year. It is pretty shameful the extent to which the US tries to attach itself to the income and wealth of people who are not even living in the country solely because they are American citizens. In some cases, compliance with US tax laws (even though not in the US) are in direct conflict with laws in jurisdictions where people actually reside.…

Consider the taxes (after the very generous $90+k exemption) a fee for services offered to expatriates. You may never use such services, but your fee pays to make those services available if you ever need them. The U.S. Embassy system offers world-class services to U.S. citizens with legal, medical, and (depending on the circumstances) financial problems in foreign countries. They will negotiate your release if you a…

The same can be said for every western nation. They don't require taxation of non-residents though.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#55

Post by capisce » Fri, Sep 27, 2013, 7:21 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #38

dutchbrit wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, being a US citizen requires you to pay the US tax, even though you live in a different country, work in that country and already pay tax in that country. It's been like that for a long time already, pretty rediculous of you ask me!

Note that you often don't get double taxed. They just want the difference between what you would pay in the USA vs. what you actually pay in country B, after $97k that is. If you are in a country with higher taxes than the states, which is most of the world actually, you won't be paying anything more (just watch out for HK, Singapore, and Switzerland).

Having to go through the form hell of filing US taxes seems like a tax in itself.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#56

Post by lgbr » Fri, Sep 27, 2013, 7:21 AM UTC

cromwellian wrote: post #23

If you want to live abroad and pay no US taxes, shouldn't one also give up rights to any entitlement services from the US government during that period? Otherwise, US tax payers are subsidizing free riders. If I'm a US citizen, but spend my whole life working in another country, should I be entitled to draw social security checks from the US? This would seem to create a moral hazard, as if you could find a tax shelte…

Generally, government retirement programs aren't really tied to citizenship. You have to have contributed to social security for a number of years to receive benefits. I'm a US citizen, but my income is German, so I will ultimately receive German retirement benefits.

Living abroad, there are few benefits I'm actually entitled to. In some third world nations, if I'm arrested, then I could receive help at the embassy's expense. But I live in a first world country. I receive zero benefits from the US government. I can't think of a single service the US government provides me. In fact, they hold a monopoly on many of the services I need. If I simply want to notarize a form, I have to get to a consulate and then pay $50 (something I get for free in the US). And yet I have to file taxes and sometimes PAY taxes.

And here's an even worse bit: I get exempted from paying on the first ~$90k of foreign earned income, great. But in order to get that benefit, I'm not allowed to spend more than 30 days in any year in the US. That just means I'm not going to visit my home country at all, because if I visit family for 29 days, and later in the year I need to come back home for a funeral or other emergency, well, that would be a trip that could cost upwards of $20k in US taxes.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#57

Post by Afforess » Fri, Sep 27, 2013, 7:21 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #41

paulhauggis wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much is considered lawful? 30%? 50%? 90%? It would be lawful if I agreed to all of it. I do agree we need taxes, but in many cases, it's excessive and against my will (you can go to jail if you don't pay it). The other problem is that there is no accountability.

If you are living in the USA, you are probably paying far fewer taxes (income and consumption) than people living anywhere else in the developed world, as well as much of the developing world. I'm assuming you live in China though, since you said there is no accountability, and you can't vote out public officials whose tax policies you don't like.

So because other countries take an arm and a leg in taxes, but the USA only takes an arm, we should shut up and be happy?

/FlawedLogic.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#58

Post by cabalamat » Fri, Sep 27, 2013, 7:25 AM UTC

Frozenlock wrote: post #24

pekk wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxation is not theft, it is lawful. The developed world is founded on taxes.

And war isn't murdering people? Just because something has the backing of a government doesn't change the definition of words. You can argue who is the owner of the money being taxed, but you can't say something is or isn't because it's lawful.

> Just because something has the backing of a government doesn't change the definition of words.

For some words, the government defines what they mean. This includes legal terms, such as murder or rape or theft -- all or which mean what the laws (written by the government) say what they mean.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#59

Post by bobwaycott » Fri, Sep 27, 2013, 7:25 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #46

foobarbazqux wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living inside the state, you wouldn't have those fruits if it weren't for the state. Living outside of the state, tribute of fruits is the fee for belonging to the state. If someone were truly being forced to pay US taxes, they wouldn't be able to renounce their citizenship while living outside of the state. And inside the state, it's like complaining that your parents insist you buy your brother a present with your…

> Living inside the state, you wouldn't have those fruits if it weren't for the state Nice theory but it's not even like you have a remote possibility to live outside of the State. Every country require you to BELONG to a State. You'd rather look back in History how people were actually able to survive and thrive before advanced State powers even existed. The Human Race was not born with a State and Government to dir…

Oh please. Spare us the shitty history lesson. The state has existed in human history for more than 10,000 years.

The survival and thriving of the human race prior to the establishment of states is incomparable to the last 10,000 years--except to say that they evolved, survived, and propagated the species. They did not thrive.

The human race was hardly shit before it began establishing states in order to organize, centralize, protect, expand, and make its way in the world. Before that? Humans were nothing.

Ten thousand years of history does not qualify as a "recent creation in history" unless you're being really particular about establishing recent on a universal and geological time scale.

Without the creation of states, humanity had and left little to nothing behind. It merely existed. You would not be here if it weren't for the creation of the state.

This is not in any way, shape, or form what socialism would have anyone believe.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#60

Post by geoka9 » Fri, Sep 27, 2013, 7:25 AM UTC

guard-of-terra wrote: post #18

pekk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a diplomatic issue what countries report to each other. And your suggestion is mass murder?

Well, now you agree Iraq invasion was a mass murder? Once USA extort money going from country A to country B for failing to comply, it's no longer a diplomatic issue, that's an international crime. And it was from the day one - USA threatening financial institutions in other countries, giving orders to them directly, that's audaceous.

As I understand it, the only way the USG can enforce those orders is if the financial institution has a branch/subsidiary in the US. If they don't, I think they are free to ignore the requirement.