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Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#41

Post by seanmcdirmid »

paulhauggis wrote: post #35
pekk wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxation is not theft, it is lawful. The developed world is founded on taxes.

How much is considered lawful? 30%? 50%? 90%? It would be lawful if I agreed to all of it. I do agree we need taxes, but in many cases, it's excessive and against my will (you can go to jail if you don't pay it). The other problem is that there is no accountability.

If you are living in the USA, you are probably paying far fewer taxes (income and consumption) than people living anywhere else in the developed world, as well as much of the developing world.

I'm assuming you live in China though, since you said there is no accountability, and you can't vote out public officials whose tax policies you don't like.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#42

Post by Afforess »

ari_ wrote: post #20

There are multiple issues here, and maybe one real but complicated solution besides getting rid of US Citizenship: US Citizens are taxed on their income by the US regardless of where it was sourced and regardless of where they live. There are exclusions for foreign earned income up $97,600 in 2013 [1], but that does not exempt you from FILING the 1040 and whatever else. In addition the US has tax treaties [2] with va…

Couldn't care less

Could care less means they care some, and theoretically could care less than they already care. Couldn't care less means they already don't care at all.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#43

Post by ekianjo »

pekk wrote: post #12
jandrewrogers wrote: post #5

This has been the case for some time and has been getting worse year after year. It is pretty shameful the extent to which the US tries to attach itself to the income and wealth of people who are not even living in the country solely because they are American citizens. In some cases, compliance with US tax laws (even though not in the US) are in direct conflict with laws in jurisdictions where people actually reside.…

Payment of one's taxes is not the same as, or equivalent to, indentured servitude. Or slavery.

Yeah, but failure to pay your taxes leads to servitude and slavery in prisons. It's just one step before.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#44

Post by gamblor956 »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #5

This has been the case for some time and has been getting worse year after year. It is pretty shameful the extent to which the US tries to attach itself to the income and wealth of people who are not even living in the country solely because they are American citizens. In some cases, compliance with US tax laws (even though not in the US) are in direct conflict with laws in jurisdictions where people actually reside.…

Consider the taxes (after the very generous $90+k exemption) a fee for services offered to expatriates. You may never use such services, but your fee pays to make those services available if you ever need them.

The U.S. Embassy system offers world-class services to U.S. citizens with legal, medical, and (depending on the circumstances) financial problems in foreign countries. They will negotiate your release if you are arrested for foreign crimes. They will work with your health provider if you become gravely sick. They will help you reorder credit cards if you are robbed and even provide you with cash advances or a place to stay.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#45

Post by ekianjo »

bobwaycott wrote: post #39
binarymax wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but it is extortion

No, it is not.

It is. No matter how you'd like to see it. The State has no legitimacy over your life and your earnings. It did not do anything to deserve it.

This misconception comes from "Monarchy by Divine Right" from Old Europe, where it was your duty before God to support your King with your earnings.

It has become more and more of an extortion as the amount seized by your rulers far exceeds (in percentage) what was paid during the Middle Ages.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#46

Post by ekianjo »

foobarbazqux wrote: post #28
alexmat wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not equivalent to, but certainly shares similar characteristics through coerced surrender of the fruits of one's labor.

Living inside the state, you wouldn't have those fruits if it weren't for the state. Living outside of the state, tribute of fruits is the fee for belonging to the state. If someone were truly being forced to pay US taxes, they wouldn't be able to renounce their citizenship while living outside of the state. And inside the state, it's like complaining that your parents insist you buy your brother a present with your…

> Living inside the state, you wouldn't have those fruits if it weren't for the state

Nice theory but it's not even like you have a remote possibility to live outside of the State. Every country require you to BELONG to a State.

You'd rather look back in History how people were actually able to survive and thrive before advanced State powers even existed. The Human Race was not born with a State and Government to direct themselves. This is all a very recent creation in History. Let's not invert the logic and pretend that without State we would have nothing. This is what Socialism wants you to believe.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#47

Post by yardie »

brudgers wrote: post #9
eschnou wrote: post #2

"Unlike other countries, Americans are taxed not only as residents of the US but also as citizens, wherever they live." Huh?? Just because you are a US citizen, you have to pay taxes to the US wherever you live? Is any other country in the world having such policies?

US citizens living abroad are able to avail themselves of services through embassies and consulates for ordinary problems and call upon the USMC etc. for assistance with extraordinary ones.

If that is what the embassies and consulates are for than I wouldn't have a problem with that. At the moment I have to call a number to make an appointment and get shaked down by consulate security to get in to file an announcement of birth. I also have to pay a fee for that same announcement.

I think you are under the impression US embassies are a country club that expats just go to and have a cocktail from time to time.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#48

Post by gamblor956 »

ekianjo wrote: post #4
eschnou wrote: post #2

"Unlike other countries, Americans are taxed not only as residents of the US but also as citizens, wherever they live." Huh?? Just because you are a US citizen, you have to pay taxes to the US wherever you live? Is any other country in the world having such policies?

France was also trying to do that recently, since the government there spends way more than they can hope to "steal" from their citizens. They thought it was a good idea to try to tax citizens living abroad (on top of the taxes paid abroad). If they ever did that, I can tell you a number of French citizens living abroad would just drop their French passport without hesitation.

A number of French citizens, including nearly a dozen billionaires, actually did renounce their French citizenship over the proposed tax scheme. Gerarad Depardieu is the most famous of them, but not the wealthiest.

One of the Facebook founders similarly renounced his U.S. citizenship prior to its IPO.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#49

Post by Afforess »

wmt wrote: post #37
Frozenlock wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And war isn't murdering people? Just because something has the backing of a government doesn't change the definition of words. You can argue who is the owner of the money being taxed, but you can't say something is or isn't because it's lawful.

My ISP insists that I must allow them to steal my money on monthly basis or they would cut my Internet! Taxes are not theft, but a membership fee. Its perks are roads, fire department, schools, laws and law enforcement, protection from foreign armies and basically keeping the society together.

Except your argument makes no sense if you DONT LIVE IN AMERICA. If you pay US Taxes but live elsewhere, you are in fact getting robbed. Your local and government services are not provided by America, you get almost no representation from America, and yet you pay full taxes.

Complete highway robbery.

Re: Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

#50

Post by nohuck13 »

eschnou wrote: post #2

"Unlike other countries, Americans are taxed not only as residents of the US but also as citizens, wherever they live." Huh?? Just because you are a US citizen, you have to pay taxes to the US wherever you live? Is any other country in the world having such policies?

In practice, the US has lots of bilateral income tax treaties [1] that prevent expats' getting doubly taxed. For example, I'm an American living in London but I don't pay US taxes for work done here because the tax rate is higher here and by treaty, the UK gets first crack at me. I know a few Americans in (low-tax) Singapore who have to pay Singapore taxes, then pay the on top of that to the US government up to the level they would have been taxed if living in the US.

I get extra pain when I go on business trips to the states, which the US doesn't count as being foreign work. So every year I have to fill in a spreadsheet of all the days I worked in each country, and subtract the US days from my tax treaty credits. I have to do the same thing in reverse for the HMRC in the UK. My least favorite part of being an expat :)

[1] http://www.rumbaklaw.com/resources-and-tools/us-federal-tax-...

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