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Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

37signals.com

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Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#61

Post by tptacek »

bobbyi wrote: post #15
tom_rath wrote: post #10

Is that really Get Satisfaction's doing, or was it a 37signals fanboy who put that together without permission? Snagging the look-and-feel (graphics, colours, etc.) of a target's site is particularly sleazy and it seems very odd if Get Satisfaction has chosen to go that route for their business. Unless Get Satisfaction provides a prominent "request this forum be deleted" link, and actually removes a forum on request,…

Why should companies be able to "delete" 3rd party forums where people discuss their products and help each other? If someone asks a question on Stack Overflow about using Visual Studio, should Microsoft be able to delete it? Should they be able to sue SO? Should SO not be able to run ads for products that compete with VS?

They clearly shouldn't be able to stifle online discussions about products. Under US trademark law, the right to use trademarks you don't own for purposes of commentary or criticism is specifically carved out.

But that's a red herring. The relevant complaint for this branch of the discussion is that GS wound up sponsoring a website that was clearly and evidently confusing to the public. They ran that site for commercial gain, and in multiple ways made appeals to 37signals for payment to gain more control over that site. None of that is kosher.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#62

Post by tptacek »

jdileo wrote: post #33
swombat wrote: post #12

I think it's quite bad form to publicly attack another company like this without discussing it in private first. I see no indication that there was any communication between 37Signals and GetSatisfaction prior to this very public post. I've had this kind of thing done to me before, and I think it's really out of order. Essentially, 37Signals have decided, in this case, to trade politeness and "being good" for making…

37signals absolutely has a valid point and I agree with their decision to make this public so all can be aware of the tactics being employed by GS. FYI-GS is using the same type of extortion that the Better Business Bureau (BBB) has used since inception to scare companies into becoming a paid member. The general public has no idea how dishonest many of these client attainment methods really are.

I had no idea about the BBB. Can you tell us more?

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#63

Post by webwright »

tptacek wrote: post #57
webwright wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit (will probably get a downmod or two for my vehemence). If Jason Fried dropped them a note saying, "I almost hit PUBLISH on the following rant-style post, but I wanted to drop you guys a line first", they would've jumped just as far, just as fast. It would've cost him exactly NOTHING to give it a day or two on private channels before posting a rant other than the time it took to find a contact form and hit "c…

I'm surprised to hear you take this position. If I set up a website with pages for companies including RescueTime, collected security vulnerability reports, provided statistics about them, included your logo and a comment about your commitment to secure software development, I'd expect to hear from your lawyers.

Well, if you didn't otherwise appear like an asshole, you'd hear from me first. If we couldn't come to some accord, I'd weigh the lawyer involvement with the time investment that it'd require to compel you to be more reasonable.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#64

Post by tptacek »

evgen wrote: post #48
webwright wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't mean accident in that they fell on a keyboard and that came out. They mean accident in that someone wrote it as placeholder (or supposed final) copy and it didn't get reviewed/agreed to by the team before it got launched. Clearly some writer was overzealous and the higher-ups didn't get a chance to read it. Happens all the time at small startups.

> Happens all the time at small startups. ORLY? How many layers of management bullshit are there between the decision-makers at Get Satisfaction and the people writing their core message? This is not some random page buried deep within the site, it is top right on most of the pages they are generating. I have a feeling that what they mean by "accident" is that someone with a voice decided to call them on it...

I agree; also, this seems like the kind of copy that most smart companies would be measuring for conversion.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#65

Post by olefoo »

scott_s wrote: post #47
webwright wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't mean accident in that they fell on a keyboard and that came out. They mean accident in that someone wrote it as placeholder (or supposed final) copy and it didn't get reviewed/agreed to by the team before it got launched. Clearly some writer was overzealous and the higher-ups didn't get a chance to read it. Happens all the time at small startups.

That badge is/was on every page for companies that haven't set up an account with them - which I assume is a lot. And according to what other commenters here have said, it's been worded as such since launch. I have a hard time believing that the "higher-ups" hadn't read something as ubiquitous as this on their own site. Also, at a small startup, shouldn't there be very little distance from the writers and the "higher…

> That badge is/was on every page for companies that haven't set up an account with them

Yeah, the badge itself is an include in a template, good tools give you great leverage but they amplify your mistakes as much as they magnify your successes.

I could see that being a mistake of the "We didn't think through the consequences of what we were saying.", type.

OTOH I think 37signals is on the right tack by responding publicly because a private conversation would have had to start with a C&D over the use of their trademark in a manner likely to cause confusion.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#66

Post by ryanwaggoner »

enjo wrote: post #54
webwright wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit (will probably get a downmod or two for my vehemence). If Jason Fried dropped them a note saying, "I almost hit PUBLISH on the following rant-style post, but I wanted to drop you guys a line first", they would've jumped just as far, just as fast. It would've cost him exactly NOTHING to give it a day or two on private channels before posting a rant other than the time it took to find a contact form and hit "c…

Except that other folks on the web would have no idea this was going on. A private e-mail likely results in a private response (changing the wording on 37signals's get satisfaction page). A public exposure gets things changed... as it did. The fact is that GS got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. To think that the wording on that banner was not carefully considered is just plain naive. The 37 signals post is…

It's not like it's an either/or decision to send a private email or post an accusatory blog post. They could have simply tried the mature way first and then posted publicly if that didn't work.

In fact, the public post would probably have had even more impact if they had been able to say "We contacted GetSatisfaction to work with them but they wouldn't cooperate." As it is, it just reads like another one of 37signal's invented controversies designed to garner page views.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#67

Post by tptacek »

webwright wrote: post #63
tptacek wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised to hear you take this position. If I set up a website with pages for companies including RescueTime, collected security vulnerability reports, provided statistics about them, included your logo and a comment about your commitment to secure software development, I'd expect to hear from your lawyers.

Well, if you didn't otherwise appear like an asshole, you'd hear from me first. If we couldn't come to some accord, I'd weigh the lawyer involvement with the time investment that it'd require to compel you to be more reasonable.

How about this: what's an honest answer about how pissed you'd be if:

(1) I was the top Google search result for "RescueTime security"

(2) That page linked to a site where I collected security reports from end-users.

(3) That page had your logo on it.

(4) That page had copy that might suggest RescueTime didn't take the security of your customer's data seriously.

We've established that you'd come talk to me first (actually, by your wording, we've establish that I'd be hearing from your lawyer). But how upset would you be?

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#68

Post by webwright »

enjo wrote: post #54
webwright wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit (will probably get a downmod or two for my vehemence). If Jason Fried dropped them a note saying, "I almost hit PUBLISH on the following rant-style post, but I wanted to drop you guys a line first", they would've jumped just as far, just as fast. It would've cost him exactly NOTHING to give it a day or two on private channels before posting a rant other than the time it took to find a contact form and hit "c…

Except that other folks on the web would have no idea this was going on. A private e-mail likely results in a private response (changing the wording on 37signals's get satisfaction page). A public exposure gets things changed... as it did. The fact is that GS got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. To think that the wording on that banner was not carefully considered is just plain naive. The 37 signals post is…

I dunno if you've ever worked in a small startup, but to think that all wording that gets out the door gets vetted all the time is just ridiculous. My startup is pretty careful, but we've gotten caught with mistakes or even placeholder content once or twice. Chances are, some lowbie at the company said, "Oh, this will improve the text, I bet. I'll make sure to bring it up in the next design review".

If a private communication as I described would've resulted in change (it would've), what extra benefit do we get out of turning it into an expose'? If it's a big monolithic evil company, I get the concept of a public spanking. But if it's a small startup, can't we give people just a LITTLE benefit of the doubt and try the polite path first?

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#69

Post by Semiapies »

mindviews wrote: post #53
swombat wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have disagreements and confrontation all the time. Mature people resolve those potential conflicts through calm discussion. Immature people resort to attacking the people they disagree with.

On the flip side, a company like Get Satisfaction that is pushing for open dialog on support issues should be perfectly comfortable eating their own dog food here. 37Signals made what I believe to be a legitimate public complaint, Get Satisfaction made what I believe to be a quick and acceptable public response. I suppose the only loss here is that this wasn't handled on Get Satisfaction's own support site.

Why should it have to be handled on Get Satisfaction's support site?

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#70

Post by olefoo »

tptacek wrote: post #59

It's funny that Thor@GS, in the comments, points out that they're continuing to use non-free logo images, on the auspices that they're using them the same way a Wiki would. It is in fact not easy to use non-free company logo images on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Logos The tests you have to meet on WP to avoid copyvio include: * Demonstrable encyclopedic merit (you can't just upload and tag a log…

Yes they do.

Which is unfortunate, because in some cases they are providing a valuable service.

This is one of those challenges that can make or break a company.

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