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Once You Try a Four-Day Workweek, It's Hard to Go Back

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Re: Once You Try a Four-Day Workweek, It's Hard to Go Back

#61

Post by nosianu »

0xcafefood wrote: post #38
nntwozz wrote: post #23

Aldous Huxley imagined in the '20s we would automate most things and work less in the future. Today we work more than ever together with increased automation, and women work as well instad of being home to take care of the household. On paper it looks like progress, but I'm not so sure about the quality of life.

Maybe all the gains went to the top? Quality of life for the ultra-high net worth set has never been better.

At least part of it is that we put the gains into increased complexity.

For example, it used to be that you had a printed schedule on each tram, train and bus stop, changed twice a year (summer/winter schedules).

Now we have electronic displays that display the time until the next tram or bus arrives in minutes.

Just imagine the gigantic difference in infrastructure to support either of those options. My dad (East Germany, 1970s/80s) used to hand-write train schedules for one or two stations twice a year - and that was all. Now you need an entire server infrastructure, massive electronics, daily maintenance, software, etc. etc.

Of course we gain something, but I think the difference in effort far outstrips the gains. Especially when trams and busses are mostly on time.

We have also massively increased our human and business networks, both global and local. Speed and throughput requirements are up for almost everything, from just-in-time deliveries to communication.

It seems either us humans ourselves, or our systems, immediately swallow all gains and put them back into increased complexity of the system(s).

Related, this study headline from a few years ago: "Humans solve problems by adding complexity, even when it’s against our best interests" -- https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/04/16/bias-prob...

I venture to guess that, in addition to most people's fascination with some form of "progress", another part of that is our capitalist financial and work system: Everybody has to do something that makes money. You just can't simplify away your own job. Well you can, but you would be stupid to do so. Competition is supposed to be the counter-force, but that does not seem to work all that well overall.

Re: Once You Try a Four-Day Workweek, It's Hard to Go Back

#62

Post by znpy »

jandrese wrote: post #54
0xcafefood wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe all the gains went to the top? Quality of life for the ultra-high net worth set has never been better.

I'm not sure I'd say the QoL for the ultra-rich has been improved that much. They have a lot more money, but end up spending it mostly on updated versions of the same stuff rich people have always spent money on. There is a serious diminishing returns on how much money can improve your Quality of Life. It can even become a burden as a level of extreme wealth can start to become its own obligation.

> I'm not sure I'd say the QoL for the ultra-rich has been improved that much.

It has. What you’re missing is that everybody on this forum is part of the top one percent: it all depends on the scale.

On a global scale, if you live in the west, most likely you’re in the top 1%.

Re: Once You Try a Four-Day Workweek, It's Hard to Go Back

#63

Post by n4r9 »

015a wrote: post #32
alexjplant wrote: post #15

Parts of US Department of Defense and their contractors do what they refer to as Compressed Work Schedule (CWS) wherein employees work 9-hour days and get every other Friday off. Some people opt to split their off day and make every Friday a half-day so that they can be on the links or at the riverside bar and grill by lunchtime. While in college I worked 10 hours a day Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday. Saturd…

IMO: I have never worked in a job where I would have been like "heck yeah, four day work week lets do it". Part of that is, there's kinda two distinct and separate camps, and sometimes its unclear which camp people are in and what we're fighting for. Is it "I work ~40 hours in four days" or "I work ~32 hours in four days"? And my take is, I don't like either of these solutions. I've never worked in a role where I fee…

> there's so much admin and meetings (and even just finding availability for meetings!)

So I moved to a four day week just over a year ago. It's been crucial to get really strict about reducing the amount of time spent in meetings. It's not easy always being the awkward person that's often telling people to take tangential discussions offline, demanding agendas, or challenging whether a call is required.

> Policies like that, four day work weeks, limited PTO, attract cogs, not high performers.

Or high performers who've recently become parents, or whose own parents are nearing end of life, or who have some other reason to want to spend more time with family.

Re: Once You Try a Four-Day Workweek, It's Hard to Go Back

#64

Post by znpy »

listenallyall wrote: post #48
0xcafefood wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe all the gains went to the top? Quality of life for the ultra-high net worth set has never been better.

Few people want to sit idle and just do nothing. We have, in fact, automated almost everything. Dishwashers, laundry machines, Amazon delivering to your door. People have a natural instinct to fill in the gaps and so they take on more activities, responsibilities, and work.

> Amazon delivering to your door.

Uhhh last time i checked amazon truck drivers were still humans, and drone delivery is still a catchy marketing stunt at least for now.

Re: Once You Try a Four-Day Workweek, It's Hard to Go Back

#65

Post by nosianu »

jandrese wrote: post #54
0xcafefood wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe all the gains went to the top? Quality of life for the ultra-high net worth set has never been better.

I'm not sure I'd say the QoL for the ultra-rich has been improved that much. They have a lot more money, but end up spending it mostly on updated versions of the same stuff rich people have always spent money on. There is a serious diminishing returns on how much money can improve your Quality of Life. It can even become a burden as a level of extreme wealth can start to become its own obligation.

That's it's not about how much money they use for their lifestyles, it's about how much of the economy you control. The more, the more interesting projects you can do - see Elon Musk. Of course he could live just as well with a fraction of what he owns now, but his control over so much is what allows him to do "cool stuff".

Being ultra-rich is more about controlling society's destiny, not about how one lives.

Whether that's hood or bad is hard to say without checking what a specific person does with all that control, and what would the others do if the control was not so centralized in so few.

Re: Once You Try a Four-Day Workweek, It's Hard to Go Back

#67

Post by voxl »

myprotegeai wrote: post #60
nntwozz wrote: post #23

Aldous Huxley imagined in the '20s we would automate most things and work less in the future. Today we work more than ever together with increased automation, and women work as well instad of being home to take care of the household. On paper it looks like progress, but I'm not so sure about the quality of life.

It's not progress. Every organization has "load bearing" employees that do the brunt of the real work, and everyone else just creates a cloud of confusion about what they actually do and why it's important. Most people are doing fake work. But unfortunately "fake work" jobs are the only way to fight back about the ever-optimizing, ever-extracting process of the free market. My job is needed because fuck you, I'm not…

It's all well and good to pretend that this is the case, but it isn't. Most jobs involve some obvious measure of progress. Especially under the umbrella of "service." Women disproportionately choose these jobs: nurses, servers, etc. Women are more educated, hell the last time I went to the doctor there was a resident, a nurse, and a doctor, all three where women.

There could be some jobs where it's hard to measure progress, like quality assurance, but these jobs have been looked at with ire by management for so long it's an old wives tale at this point.

What is likely more true, is that productivity varies between employees somewhat, and perhaps there are 2x employees. But, measuring relative productivity is much, much harder.

Re: Once You Try a Four-Day Workweek, It's Hard to Go Back

#68

Post by zten »

StyloBill wrote: post #44
tomohelix wrote: post #27

I know this is HN and most people here heavily support WFH. But as this article shows, people will support whatever benefits they can get, even if it is very likely come at the cost of productivity. With WFH, it is a mixed bag of whether that would affect productivity or not but from a risk averse management perspective, it is understandable that they don't want to risk it and go back to the traditional mode. In my (…

Fairness related to other professions seems to be a very odd metric. I fail to see why software engineers should feel guilty about WFH because others can't. I mean I'd love to be able to enjoy a nice sky or a beautiful view of the sea while I'm working but alas, my work tool is neither a plane nor a boat.

It's a great way to start a war among the lower classes.

Re: Once You Try a Four-Day Workweek, It's Hard to Go Back

#69

Post by pmg101 »

stavros wrote: post #49

I work four eight-hour days (with a concomitant 20% pay cut), and I'm never going back. I did try a five-day year, after six or so years of a four-day week, but that just made me cement my decision to not work five days. A two-day weekend is too short, a five-day workweek is too long. 4/3 is the perfect split.

This is true in my opinion. But if you worked the fifth day and invested all your fifth-day earnings, you could retire/become financially independent a decade earlier.

I'm not sure it's so clear cut which of these is the better option.

Re: Once You Try a Four-Day Workweek, It's Hard to Go Back

#70

Post by Night_Thastus »

cooper_ganglia wrote: post #36
Night_Thastus wrote: post #21

So this is fewer hours as well, right? Not just the same 40 hours but compressed into 4 days? It doesn't seem unreasonable it could work for some jobs and people. Too many hours and people tend to get stressed, tired, worried about home matters they can't attend to, etc - and their performance suffers as a result. Depends a lot on the job and person, though.

For me, I work 4x 10hr days, and it's the best work situation I've ever had. Having every single weekend be a 3-day weekend is something it would be very hard to move away from unless I was doubling my salary or something.

I think that should be an option everywhere it's feasible for those who want it - but damn I will never take a 4x10 schedule. My performance drops quite a bit past the 6 hour mark if it's been a strong day - I'd definitely get nothing done in the remaining 2 hours of a 10 hour day.
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