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The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#61

Post by roughly »

umvi wrote: post #14
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You steal a mummy from egipt, take it to london, put it in a museum. Who has more claim on the item... someone who stole it and kept it for 100, 150, 200 years? Or people of egypt represented by their government,living in an area where the mummy was stolen from?

Yeah but it gets absurd if enough time passes. "Your ancestors wronged my ancestors 1000 years ago, so now modern you owes modern me"

This is I think a thing that is difficult for Americans to understand, because the only Americans who have a thousand years of family history in the place they currently live are also asking museums for their stuff back.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#62

Post by mihaic »

zpeti wrote: post #59
mihaic wrote: post #41

While these discussions are always loaded with sentimental intepretation, and complex questions of what "rightful owner" after hundreds or thousands of years even means, I think more of an emphasis should be put on impact for the population. After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preserv…

[flagged]

> Should we give everything back to them, a culture that seems hellbent on destroying everything they don’t like?

Not sure if I was unclear, but my thinking is that: no, nothing should be given back from the British Museum.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#63

Post by AdamN »

zpeti wrote: post #59
mihaic wrote: post #41

While these discussions are always loaded with sentimental intepretation, and complex questions of what "rightful owner" after hundreds or thousands of years even means, I think more of an emphasis should be put on impact for the population. After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preserv…

[flagged]

There are alot of question marks around what actually happened with the library in Alexandria.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#64

Post by bell-cot »

rightbyte wrote: post #33
moi2388 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on the time period, anyone between the Egyptians, Hyksos, Nubians, Libyans, Persians, Assyrians and the Romans, and indeed the British, since they all at one point were the official rulers of Egypt. I have no idea why citizens of modern Egypt, which didn’t get formed until 1953, would be more entitled to up to 3500 year old artifacts more than the then actual owners (agree with the means or not)

Mummies are maybe a bad example, as one could argue, that bodies should be by their grave.

Or a perfect example - because there are extremely few cultures and circumstances in which very old human graves are moved when the government or rulers changed?

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#65

Post by juliuskiesian »

mihaic wrote: post #41

While these discussions are always loaded with sentimental intepretation, and complex questions of what "rightful owner" after hundreds or thousands of years even means, I think more of an emphasis should be put on impact for the population. After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preserv…

[flagged]

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#66

Post by arethuza »

bell-cot wrote: post #57
tivert wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see how that example is "giv[ing] things back." That stone is still the property of the British government and kept continuously on British territory.

It's Complicated(tm) - Scotland and England are, currently , both part of Britain. Historically, not so much. And they were often far-from-friendly, with wars fought and everything. In a referendum 10 years ago, ~45% of Scottish voters wanted to separate again.

My own reaction to the most recent Scottish independence referendum was pretty much "Oh well, at least we're still in the EU"...

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#67

Post by [deleted] »

yawnxyz wrote: post #53
dijit wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the sentiment, however in some ways it should be something that is permitted to move. The UK has been very stable for a long time, however they are profiting indirectly from the museums, since it s a driver of tourism. Should the UK become less stable, we should have a hard look at ensuring the continuity of the collection. As others have mentioned, a lot of these things would have been destroyed or forg…

If the UK became less stable, maybe someone like Germany could take custody and seize the collection, for UK's own good?

[deleted]

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#68

Post by alluro2 »

dijit wrote: post #56
yawnxyz wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the UK became less stable, maybe someone like Germany could take custody and seize the collection, for UK's own good?

Or France, or Belgium, or Finland, or Netherlands.

That's quite a jump from discussing Germany taking custody of a museum collection. I don't think these countries would like being taken too.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#69

Post by chgs »

bell-cot wrote: post #57
tivert wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see how that example is "giv[ing] things back." That stone is still the property of the British government and kept continuously on British territory.

It's Complicated(tm) - Scotland and England are, currently , both part of Britain. Historically, not so much. And they were often far-from-friendly, with wars fought and everything. In a referendum 10 years ago, ~45% of Scottish voters wanted to separate again.

Scotland and England has been the same country for far longer than say the USA has even existed.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#70

Post by TremendousJudge »

mihaic wrote: post #41

While these discussions are always loaded with sentimental intepretation, and complex questions of what "rightful owner" after hundreds or thousands of years even means, I think more of an emphasis should be put on impact for the population. After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preserv…

> After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preservation. The global cultural value it adds is much larger than individual museums all over the would could provide.

Most of the collection of the British Museum is not on display at any given moment (if ever). They could lose 90% of their inventory and the display would be exactly the same.

But that's beside the point. Museum entry may be free, but London is pretty expensive to go to, especially if you are from a place where the items in question were plundered (ie poor third world countries). In some cases it may even be illegal. Most of the people whose cultures those items belong to cannot afford to go visit the museum.

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