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The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#51

Post by dijit »

mihaic wrote: post #41

While these discussions are always loaded with sentimental intepretation, and complex questions of what "rightful owner" after hundreds or thousands of years even means, I think more of an emphasis should be put on impact for the population. After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preserv…

I agree with the sentiment, however in some ways it should be something that is permitted to move.

The UK has been very stable for a long time, however they are profiting indirectly from the museums, since it s a driver of tourism.

Should the UK become less stable, we should have a hard look at ensuring the continuity of the collection. As others have mentioned, a lot of these things would have been destroyed or forgotten had the British not decided it was important to keep it - and as time goes on, those things become even more irreplaceable.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#52

Post by satvikpendem »

TeaBrain wrote: post #44
soco wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and repay it by giving back said object. Egypt or those countries didn't ask for rent or back payments so let's stop imagining strawmen.

Repay what? The people of modern Egypt have no connection or inheritance claim to the ancient artifacts, other than their having been created in a similar place where the modern Egyptians are currently living. They don't even share a remotely similar culture. The same is true of many other places that had their artifacts collected, in that the people have no legal claim to the artifacts other than their having existe…

Indeed, it is even arguable whether they are even genetically similar to the ancient Egyptians, due to the migration of the Arabs from the peninsula when spreading Islam over time.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#53

Post by yawnxyz »

dijit wrote: post #51
mihaic wrote: post #41

While these discussions are always loaded with sentimental intepretation, and complex questions of what "rightful owner" after hundreds or thousands of years even means, I think more of an emphasis should be put on impact for the population. After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preserv…

I agree with the sentiment, however in some ways it should be something that is permitted to move. The UK has been very stable for a long time, however they are profiting indirectly from the museums, since it s a driver of tourism. Should the UK become less stable, we should have a hard look at ensuring the continuity of the collection. As others have mentioned, a lot of these things would have been destroyed or forg…

If the UK became less stable, maybe someone like Germany could take custody and seize the collection, for UK's own good?

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#54

Post by graemep »

danparsonson wrote: post #40
trwhite wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- the artifact is likely to be seen by significantly more people and serves a much greater purpose to expose/educate those people (from other cultures) to/about the culture from which it came

That argument wears thin very quickly, especially when the people of the culture from which the artifact originates are not able to view it (because it now lives in London instead of their home country), and thereby learn about their own history. See for example the Benin Bronzes; imagine that the original US Constitution document were housed in a museum in Nigeria.

The Benin Bronzes if returned will go to the descendants of the original owners - the kings of a kingdom built on slavery.

I certainly know many people in countries from which these things were taken who think they are safer somewhere stable - I have heard exactly the comment that returning things will probably mean then end up stolen by politicians from Sri Lankans with regard to the things the Netherlands returned to Sri Lanka.

Also, consider what would have happened if the things from what is now Iraq had been there at the mercy of the likes of ISIS.

In many cases the people know occupying a territory have a different culture and history to the ancient people who made something. They may even have been the conquerors who destroyed the culture that made artifacts.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#55

Post by TeaBrain »

mikrl wrote: post #8
matrix2003 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know some of the museums aren’t the right place to keep some of the artifacts, but I also feel that in general they have been good stewards. My counterpoint is wondering how many would have been destroyed by ISIS or civil unrest in some of the less stable regions of the world.

>My counterpoint is wondering how many would have been destroyed by ISIS or civil unrest in some of the less stable regions of the world. This line of thought is fascinating to me. We should preserve them for all of humanity? Who chooses the custodian? We want a more nationalist case for repatriation to country of origin? If they get destroyed, it’s not the self-professed custodian nation’s problem or loss. Cynical,…

>Maybe having their artifacts back

The idea that modern Egyptians have any claim over the artifacts when they don't share a culture or civilization with those who created the artifacts is tenuous. The artifacts don't belong to the land itself. They belonged to people of a no longer existing civilization that once inhabited the land.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#56

Post by dijit »

yawnxyz wrote: post #53
dijit wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the sentiment, however in some ways it should be something that is permitted to move. The UK has been very stable for a long time, however they are profiting indirectly from the museums, since it s a driver of tourism. Should the UK become less stable, we should have a hard look at ensuring the continuity of the collection. As others have mentioned, a lot of these things would have been destroyed or forg…

If the UK became less stable, maybe someone like Germany could take custody and seize the collection, for UK's own good?

Or France, or Belgium, or Finland, or Netherlands.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#57

Post by bell-cot »

tivert wrote: post #25
arethuza wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK government occasionally does give things back on the understanding that they can be returned for a bit when required... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_of_Scone

I don't really see how that example is "giv[ing] things back." That stone is still the property of the British government and kept continuously on British territory.

It's Complicated(tm) - Scotland and England are, currently, both part of Britain. Historically, not so much. And they were often far-from-friendly, with wars fought and everything. In a referendum 10 years ago, ~45% of Scottish voters wanted to separate again.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#58

Post by aamargulies »

angry_moose wrote: post #7

Stuff the British Stole is a really good podcast (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) that explores the difficulties of these situations: https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/stuff-the-british-sto... Things like: - The current government in power may not allow the artifacts to be returned to the original people, but will accept them and place them in the national museum. In many of these cases; the original people…

Acaster’s brilliant, funny bit on this:

https://youtu.be/x73PkUvArJY?si=eRB3RIuR7rjXvw_i

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#59

Post by zpeti »

mihaic wrote: post #41

While these discussions are always loaded with sentimental intepretation, and complex questions of what "rightful owner" after hundreds or thousands of years even means, I think more of an emphasis should be put on impact for the population. After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preserv…

[flagged]

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#60

Post by comte7092 »

mihaic wrote: post #41

While these discussions are always loaded with sentimental intepretation, and complex questions of what "rightful owner" after hundreds or thousands of years even means, I think more of an emphasis should be put on impact for the population. After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preserv…

While London is indeed a global city, access is very much not equal.

Immigration/tourism requirements are always the strictest against the very countries who were plundered during colonial times, in comparison to rich countries with an imperial past/present.

Most of the world will never visit the UK. Most of the value that the British museum supplies goes back to the UK in the form of tourism and to close allies of the UK in terms of exposure to these artifacts.

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