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The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#11

Post by arethuza »

angry_moose wrote: post #7

Stuff the British Stole is a really good podcast (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) that explores the difficulties of these situations: https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/stuff-the-british-sto... Things like: - The current government in power may not allow the artifacts to be returned to the original people, but will accept them and place them in the national museum. In many of these cases; the original people…

The UK government occasionally does give things back on the understanding that they can be returned for a bit when required...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_of_Scone

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#12

Post by interactivecode »

matrix2003 wrote: post #4
snapcaster wrote: post #2

Nice! I think about this every time i'm in an English museum

I know some of the museums aren’t the right place to keep some of the artifacts, but I also feel that in general they have been good stewards. My counterpoint is wondering how many would have been destroyed by ISIS or civil unrest in some of the less stable regions of the world.

[flagged]

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#13

Post by trwhite »

angry_moose wrote: post #7

Stuff the British Stole is a really good podcast (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) that explores the difficulties of these situations: https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/stuff-the-british-sto... Things like: - The current government in power may not allow the artifacts to be returned to the original people, but will accept them and place them in the national museum. In many of these cases; the original people…

- the artifact is likely to be seen by significantly more people and serves a much greater purpose to expose/educate those people (from other cultures) to/about the culture from which it came

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#14

Post by umvi »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #10
pfortuny wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is spot on. Why should a “mosern country” be the owner of an artifact? I wonder honestly, I am not just whining.

You steal a mummy from egipt, take it to london, put it in a museum. Who has more claim on the item... someone who stole it and kept it for 100, 150, 200 years? Or people of egypt represented by their government,living in an area where the mummy was stolen from?

Yeah but it gets absurd if enough time passes.

"Your ancestors wronged my ancestors 1000 years ago, so now modern you owes modern me"

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#15

Post by AlotOfReading »

matrix2003 wrote: post #4
snapcaster wrote: post #2

Nice! I think about this every time i'm in an English museum

I know some of the museums aren’t the right place to keep some of the artifacts, but I also feel that in general they have been good stewards. My counterpoint is wondering how many would have been destroyed by ISIS or civil unrest in some of the less stable regions of the world.

There's 2 separate Hague conventions establishing an international framework for how to protect heritage in conflict regions. They're not perfect (like pretty much any convention), but they address all the basic issues like sheltering artifacts abroad and dedicating military units to prevent destruction.

Also, western institutions have not been ideal stewards themselves, historically. The Pergamon kept the Ishtar gate through bombings in WW2 and the GDR. The British Museum has lost untold numbers of artifacts because they don't even have the resources to do a complete catalog of their collection, let alone properly conserve them.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#16

Post by yieldcrv »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #10
pfortuny wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is spot on. Why should a “mosern country” be the owner of an artifact? I wonder honestly, I am not just whining.

You steal a mummy from egipt, take it to london, put it in a museum. Who has more claim on the item... someone who stole it and kept it for 100, 150, 200 years? Or people of egypt represented by their government,living in an area where the mummy was stolen from?

false dilemma, there are more options

the "most right" answer doesn't mean its the right answer. compromise results in wrong answers when there is a right answer. this isn't a standardized test.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#17

Post by noworriesnate »

pfortuny wrote: post #5
notpushkin wrote: post #3

> While some critics of repatriation have raised concerns over how poorer countries will care for their returned artifacts, Marieke van Bommel, director general of the National Museum of World Cultures, tells the New York Times’ Lynsey Chutel that “the thief cannot tell the rightful owners what to do with their property.” But the government of the country the artifacts are being returned into isn’t the rightful owner…

This is spot on. Why should a “mosern country” be the owner of an artifact? I wonder honestly, I am not just whining.

Because they are more secure there. These are irreplaceable items. Pick your favorite cultural artifact, would you help move it to a more secure location if there was a lot of instability that could lead to it being destroyed? Even if that more secure location was a different country? I personally would.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#18

Post by moi2388 »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #10
pfortuny wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is spot on. Why should a “mosern country” be the owner of an artifact? I wonder honestly, I am not just whining.

You steal a mummy from egipt, take it to london, put it in a museum. Who has more claim on the item... someone who stole it and kept it for 100, 150, 200 years? Or people of egypt represented by their government,living in an area where the mummy was stolen from?

Depending on the time period, anyone between the Egyptians, Hyksos, Nubians, Libyans, Persians, Assyrians and the Romans, and indeed the British, since they all at one point were the official rulers of Egypt.

I have no idea why citizens of modern Egypt, which didn’t get formed until 1953, would be more entitled to up to 3500 year old artifacts more than the then actual owners (agree with the means or not)

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#19

Post by [deleted] »

interactivecode wrote: post #12
matrix2003 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know some of the museums aren’t the right place to keep some of the artifacts, but I also feel that in general they have been good stewards. My counterpoint is wondering how many would have been destroyed by ISIS or civil unrest in some of the less stable regions of the world.

[flagged]

[deleted]

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#20

Post by soco »

umvi wrote: post #14
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You steal a mummy from egipt, take it to london, put it in a museum. Who has more claim on the item... someone who stole it and kept it for 100, 150, 200 years? Or people of egypt represented by their government,living in an area where the mummy was stolen from?

Yeah but it gets absurd if enough time passes. "Your ancestors wronged my ancestors 1000 years ago, so now modern you owes modern me"

Yes, and repay it by giving back said object. Egypt or those countries didn't ask for rent or back payments so let's stop imagining strawmen.
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